Musical Mondays Week 23 Top Hat

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Whelp, I'm delighted. I think Astaire as a tad more charm.

At the risk of piling on I agree. Astaire always seems to be doing it for the sheer joy. (Even the mailman in the animated show has a twinkle in his smile and eyes.) Gene Kelly always seems to be saying "Look what I can do". The Broadway "ballet" in Singin' in the Rain would be an example of this to me. The entire number has no story point that I can find. I understand they're explaining the plot to the studio head but the dance itself doesn't tell a story. Contrast that with Louise's ballet in Carousel. She lives in such a stuffy town and is tormented for being a ne'er-do-well's daughter. To me her dance is her trying to break out to the life she wants and not the one forced on her.

[EvRobert 1684]

Interestingly, Astaire never considered Kelly his “successor” but rather Michael Jackson. And I think Jackson reciprocated

 

[grudlian. 4725]

At the risk of piling on I agree. Astaire always seems to be doing it for the sheer joy. (Even the mailman in the animated show has a twinkle in his smile and eyes.) Gene Kelly always seems to be saying "Look what I can do". The Broadway "ballet" in Singin' in the Rain would be an example of this to me. The entire number has no story point that I can find. I understand they're explaining the plot to the studio head but the dance itself doesn't tell a story. Contrast that with Louise's ballet in Carousel. She lives in such a stuffy town and is tormented for being a ne'er-do-well's daughter. To me her dance is her trying to break out to the life she wants and not the one forced on her.

I tried to make this same point to someone about Gene Kelly compared to Donald O'Connor in Singin' In The Rain to a friend. If you watch the Moses Supposes part where they both are dancing the exact same moves, O'Connor just seems effortlessly doing it and having fun if you look at their faces. Kelly looks like he's intense and focused.

 

Now, I'm not a dancer of ANY kind. So, my analysis could be totally wrong. Maybe it's just different ways of approaching the moves. Maybe Kelly is a more technically proficient dancer. Kelly did the choreography and co-directed Singin' In The Rain and the weight of the movie resting more on his shoulders is what I see on his face. I don't know. Kelly just looks like "work, work, work" and O'Connor and Astaire in this movie look like "I'm getting to dance!"

 

Not to take anything away from Gene Kelly of course who could dances circles around me.

[Cameron H. 23786]

I tried to make this same point to someone about Gene Kelly compared to Donald O'Connor in Singin' In The Rain to a friend. If you watch the Moses Supposes part where they both are dancing the exact same moves, O'Connor just seems effortlessly doing it and having fun if you look at their faces. Kelly looks like he's intense and focused.

 

Now, I'm not a dancer of ANY kind. So, my analysis could be totally wrong. Maybe it's just different ways of approaching the moves. Maybe Kelly is a more technically proficient dancer. Kelly did the choreography and co-directed Singin' In The Rain and the weight of the movie resting more on his shoulders is what I see on his face. I don't know. Kelly just looks like "work, work, work" and O'Connor and Astaire in this movie look like "I'm getting to dance!"

 

Not to take anything away from Gene Kelly of course who could dances circles around me.

 

I feel the same way about O'Conner! He's amazing in Singin' in the Rain and doesn't get near enough credit. As for the "work ethic" part, I read yesterday (I cam't remember where) that Astaire was doing a movie and they shot this dance number, but later decided that the set didn't work for the scene. So after the movie was shot, they went back and re-shot the scene and Astaire duplicated it exactly - down to the subtlest gesture. I think they said on That's Entertainment III they showed the two scenes side by side and they were exact!

 

I think they were both perfectionists, I just think Kelly might have had to work just a little bit harder. I also think Kelly might have been a little more aware of how handsome he was. In which case, he might have been more self-conscious about how he looked while dancing. He might have been a little more "in his own head" as it were.

[grudlian. 4725]

It's not a dance-off but your wish is YouTube's command.

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I thought Gene Kelly's "Say, you're...uhhh...Fred Astaire!" was a burn until Fred responds "What line of business are you in?" It's obviously all scripted but that has some heat on it.

[Cameron H. 23786]

I was having a similar conversation last week with a friend. Talking about how everybody use to smoke it seems back in the day even dancers and hard laborers. His theory was that cigarettes were more pure and therefore easier on the lungs. He also believe this is why so many Asians smoke and don't get as much cancer. He's Japanese and smokes so who am I to argue.

 

First of all, those sound exactly like the type of excuses I used to make. ("But it's not like I smoke TWO packs a day...").

 

Also, apparently Astaire's first wife died from lung cancer, so I don't know that the cigarettes they were smoking were really that much "safer."

[Cam Bert 8145]

I would love to chime in but I'm afraid I'm a terrible dancer, and not familiar enough with both their works to really compare and contrast the two from what little of what I've seen.

 

I will note though I became fascinated in the video Cinco posted by just watching their arm movements. Essentially they are doing the same moves, steps for the majority of it but their choice of arm movements or what to do with your arms is very different. Read into that what you will.

[kateacola 2440]

This was the first Rogers-Astaire movie I watched. And like Cameron I looked up what their real-life relationship was. I don't know that I expected them to be in a romantic relationship in real life, but expected they were atleast good friends and enjoyed working together/ liked being dance partners. But doesn't seem that way :

 

The idea of turning them into a regular act had come from the RKO producer Pandro S. Berman. He told me: "Most of my efforts were devoted to getting Fred to work with Ginger in the film The Gay Divorcee, and then to getting him to work with her again in Roberta, and in all the others. That never stopped - he never got over the feeling that he was being forced into being a member of a team, which was the last thing in the world that he wanted."

Even so, Fred was always generous about Ginger, although would say, "I didn't want a partner." But, in professional terms, he added, "She was the ideal kind of girl to work with."

 

“We had fun and it shows,” said Rogers later in life. “True, we were never bosom buddies off the screen, we were different people with different interests. We were only a couple on film.”

[Cam Bert 8145]

 

First of all, those sound exactly like the type of excuses I used to make. ("But it's not like I smoke TWO packs a day...").

 

Also, apparently Astaire's first wife died from lung cancer, so I don't know that the cigarette's they were smoking were really that much "safer."

This conversation all started because he's moved on to electric cigarettes. Vaping isn't really a thing here, yet anyway, but they have these "electric cigarettes" which you put a special cigarette in a pen thing and you can smoke it without the smoke. I argued that smoking in any form is just as bad which slightly hypocritical because I do enjoy a cigar every now and then.

 

So if he wasn't married to Ginger, who was his first wife? Was she in the business as well?

[Quasar Sniffer 4174]

EvRobert, on 23 October 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

Going into this, I wasn't that familiar with Astaire/Rogers. I knew the names, because EVERYONE knows of Astaire & Rogers, but I had only ever seen clips (mostly from this movie I realized) of them dancing. The name (Top Hat), the dancing sequences, everything looked like something I wouldn't enjoy, so I was pleasantly surprised how much I did and I think that is due NOT to the music and dancing, but to the slapstick comedy in this. What I mean is, if you took out the singing and most of the dancing, you would have a perfectly serviceable early stages screwball comedy. There was an kind of enduring "kookiness" that made this work. It's like the Shakespeare comedies in a way, in that the upper class are morons who are constantly made fun of by the lower class (who may also be idiots, but recognize and call out the upper class).

 

What is also interesting is that this is a interesting example of a "transitional" musical. *puts my teaching glasses on* What I mean is that starting in the early 20th century, Broadway saw the rise of what is called "Princess Theater" shows. Basically they combined light entertainment with catchy songs with a loose continuity between them. 1927's Show Boat is considered by many to be the first of the "book musicals" where the songs and story are full interwoven and 1944's Oklahoma! is where it really soldified, basically all the musicals and musical movies we know today (for the most part). Top Hat doesn't quite fit the mold of revue nor does it quite fit the mold of book musical, it's a light airy comedy where the presence of songs and dance is "needed" (arguably, the only dancing that is really needed is the two tap dancing in the hotel rooms and possibly the feather dress number since it solidifies the relationship between Ginger and Fred.) but where the songs don't directly tie into the narrative. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just interesting to watch how musicals have evolved over time (and in ways they haven't).

 

I was thinking along these same lines (though not so coherently ), both about how this movie does fit nicely in the 1930s screwball comedy mode, and where this movie might fall in the lineage of musicals, both the theatrical and film variety. The fact that this has music by Irving Berlin makes it a signpost for the development of the form and American music in general, since you could make an argument that he was the most influential figure in American music in the first half of the 20th Century (I might not make that arguement because I frequently find myself proven wrong when I make such pronouncements, but I would not begrudge anyone who holds that opinion). I mean, he fucking wrote "White Christmas," which is still the highest-selling single of all-time.

 

So these movies hold an interesting place in musical and entertainment history; between the Gilbert and Sullivan and the Threepenny Opera era and the post-Oklahoma! era.

 

And speaking of works like Threepenny Opera, this is a musical that was made in the same era as the film Cabaret was depicting. I find it fascinating how historical perspective can change, and how different the 1930s was to so many people. The characters in Cabaret might have been rebelling against the very polished entertainment that Fred and Ginger were pumping out; populist, pleasing, inoffensive (unless you were Italian or gay), and, on the whole, charming. Granted, Berlin was a very different place than America, and very different in 1935 than it was ten years before or later (no shit), but part of why I love old movies (and period pieces) is that they give us a chance to see how the past viewed themselves and how that past viewed their past.

[kateacola 2440]

Also found a couple stories about the "Cheek to Cheek" scene in Top Hat but on IMDb it says:

 

For the Cheek to Cheek number, Ginger Rogers wanted to wear an elaborate blue dress heavily decked out with ostrich feathers. When director Mark Sandrich and Fred Astaire saw the dress, they knew it would be impractical for the dance. Sandrich suggested that Rogers wear the white gown she had worn performing "Night and Day" in The Gay Divorcee (1934). Rogers walked off the set, finally returning when Sandrich agreed to let her wear the offending blue dress. As there was no time for rehearsals, Ginger Rogers wore the blue feathered dress for the first time during filming, and as Astaire and Sandrich had feared, feathers started coming off the dress. Astaire later claimed it was like "a chicken being attacked by a coyote". In the final film, some stray feathers can be seen drifting off it. To patch up the rift between them, Astaire presented Rogers with a locket of a gold feather. This was the origin of Rogers' nickname "Feathers". The shedding feathers episode was recreated to hilarious results in a scene from Easter Parade (1948) in which Fred Astaire danced with a clumsy, comical dancer played by Judy Garland.

 

I watched Easter Parade and did not realize it was parodying that scene. But it is pretty entertaining, and I really loved Judy Garland in that one (and it was on my shortlist for my next pick, but I'm still deciding)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uevi7AsLFeY

 

From the stories/articles I've read-- it seems like Fred and Ginger only worked together and weren't that friendly off screen. Which is bizarre to me, I would have never guessed that.

[kateacola 2440]

Whelp, I'm delighted. I think Astaire as a tad more charm.

And guess I'm in the minority here, but I find Gene Kelly a bit more charming than Astaire.

I really enjoy watching them both and they are fantastic dancers but IDK I think GK has a slight charm edge over Astaire.

COME AT ME BROS!

 

[Cameron H. 23786]

This conversation all started because he's moved on to electric cigarettes. Vaping isn't really a thing here, yet anyway, but they have these "electric cigarettes" which you put a special cigarette in a pen thing and you can smoke it without the smoke. I argued that smoking in any form is just as bad which slightly hypocritical because I do enjoy a cigar every now and then.

 

So if he wasn't married to Ginger, who was his first wife? Was she in the business as well?

 

Aren't e-cigarettes "vaping?" Oh, and if it wasn't for health reasons (d'uh!) I would 100% still be smoking. I miss it so bad sometimes...

 

Wikipedia said that Phyllis Potter (his first wife) was a socialite and that they were married for 21 "blissful" years. She died in 1954. He didn't remarry until 1980 at the age of 80 which is kind of sweet.

[Cameron H. 23786]

And guess I'm in the minority here, but I find Gene Kelly a bit more charming than Astaire.

I really enjoy watching them both and they are fantastic dancers but IDK I think GK has a slight charm edge over Astaire.

COME AT ME BROS!

 

 

I find Kelly to be sexier, but I find Astaire to be more likable. This is based on absolutely nothing but the handful of films I've seen. Top Hat being the only Astaire film I've seen...

[kateacola 2440]

 

I find Kelly to be sexier

I confess this could be part of the reason why he seems more charming..lol

 

I haven't watched a ton of Astaire movies but I can see what you guys are saying that Kelly can sometimes look like he's working hard while Astaire seems to be more effortless in his dancing.

 

But I think Astaire making it look so easy is what makes him not quite as charming to me.

[EvRobert 1684]

I am running around town trying to get a replacement social security card at the moment (don’t ask) so I can’t get into things as deeply on my phone at the moment as I did earlier but I need to weigh in on Kelly vs Astaire. I think I agree that Astaire is more “charming” but Kelly is sexier. Kelly’s Singin’ I’m The Rain twirling around light poles and splashing in the water, etc. is more fun though, I think, then anything in Top Hat.

[kateacola 2440]

I thought it was funny when Astaire's character is getting carried away with tap dancing and wakes up Dale (Ginger) that she's already done up with perfect hair and makeup. Who goes to sleep like that?

 

And while I enjoyed his dancing, it is pretty rude for him to be full out tap dancing at night in a hotel room when you're not on the first floor.

[Cameron H. 23786]

I thought it was funny when Astaire's character is getting carried away with tap dancing and wakes up Dale (Ginger) that she's already done up with perfect hair and makeup. Who goes to sleep like that?

 

And while I enjoyed his dancing, it is pretty rude for him to be full out tap dancing at night in a hotel room when you're not on the first floor.

 

But...he had a condition.

[kateacola 2440]

I think I agree that Astaire is more “charming” but Kelly is sexier. Kelly’s Singin’ I’m The Rain twirling around light poles and splashing in the water, etc. is more fun though, I think, then anything in Top Hat.

 

Exactly why I think Kelly is a bit more charming. Overall I find him more fun to watch and comes off slightly more likeable.

 

There is an Astaire scene that's pretty fun in Easter Parade, but I don't want to keep showing clips from that one (in case I do for my next pick)

 

Watching Easter Parade, Fred was charming in it and there were some really great dancing scenes from him---but I felt like Judy Garland stole the show and I was more charmed by her than him. She stood out a lot more to me.

 

While I've watched the 3 movies with Gene Kelly and Judy Garland paired up (For Me and My Gal, The Pirate, and Summer Stock) and I was equally charmed and mesmerized by GK and JG in all 3.

[grudlian. 4725]

I thought it was funny when Astaire's character is getting carried away with tap dancing and wakes up Dale (Ginger) that she's already done up with perfect hair and makeup. Who goes to sleep like that?

 

And while I enjoyed his dancing, it is pretty rude for him to be full out tap dancing at night in a hotel room when you're not on the first floor.

Immediately after this scene, he throws sand on the floor and all I could think was about how hard that is to clean up.

[kateacola 2440]

Plus look at those thighs, lol

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Immediately after this scene, he throws sand on the floor and all I could think was about how hard that is to clean up.

From IMDB:

When Jerry goes to sprinkle sand on the floor, it is obvious from the lack of carpet pattern that there is already lots of sand on the floor.

[Cameron H. 23786]

I really liked how “Isn’t it a Lovely Day” ended with a handshake. There was nothing even particularly flirty about it. To me, it showed them as equal partners. I thought it was a lovely touch.

 

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

 

Exactly why I think Kelly is a bit more charming. Overall I find him more fun to watch and comes off slightly more likeable.

 

There is an Astaire scene that's pretty fun in Easter Parade, but I don't want to keep showing clips from that one (in case I do for my next pick)

 

Watching Easter Parade, Fred was charming in it and there were some really great dancing scenes from him---but I felt like Judy Garland stole the show and I was more charmed by her than him. She stood out a lot more to me.

 

While I've watched the 3 movies with Gene Kelly and Judy Garland paired up (For Me and My Gal, The Pirate, and Summer Stock) and I was equally charmed and mesmerized by GK and JG in all 3.

I think for me with Gene Kelly it's all about how he is at the moment. I also admit I have seen and rewatched far more Gene Kelly movies. For instance, Singin' in the Rain is absolutely charming because he's happy and the dance is pure exuberance. I also love Good Morning where they are simply celebrating having the idea that will (spoiler alert) save the movie and their careers. Effortless charm and dancing. As someone said earlier, look at Moses Supposes and there's not the same charm as the others. (ETA: Maybe because the whole point of the number is to tease or make fun of the speech teacher.)

 

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(Part 2 coming because I can only embed one video per post.)

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

The other charmless number for me is the first dance in Brigadoon. He and Van Johnson have stumbled into the village and take part in the wedding celebrations (at the groom's insistence). When they are dancing celebrating the groom Gene and Van start off with their own "modern" number. Now the focus is on them. I just realized this could be their way of introducing themselves than the intrusion I've thought of it as previously. It just always seemed like a "show-off" dance but may not be as malicious as I inferred. It still seems like Gene is working hard where Van is somewhat effortless. I guess the effect may be Gene having to work with partners who weren't up to his level so he let them be the picture and he was the frame.

 

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Anyway, they start in with a complicated dance and get egged on to continue. Now comes out the synchronized dance. Does this mean (spoiler alert) Gene's character is going to teach these dances and all kinds of modern things through the years? Isn't that kind of against the whole reason for Brigadoon what it is?