Musical Mondays Week 41 Hello, Dolly!

[Cam Bert 8145]

 

I agree, she's gorgeous. She's like buttah.

 

BUT - I felt she was far from the spinster widow type.

 

I think that is a big problem for me too. She is a widow and at the start of the movie she is only interested in Horace because he's a "half millionaire." How long was she married and why was she such a young widow? It all just makes her look like a gold digger. Unless unknown to us her former husband was actually very young as well and died in a freak accident or something.

[Cameron H. 23786]

Walter Matthau is born and raised in New York and so was Barbra Streisand. You'd think this commonality would create some kind of mutual bond between the two actors. Well I guess that was not the guess. Walter Matthau hated Barbara Streisand and she was not a fan of "old sour puss" either. He'd only show up to do scenes with her when absolutely necessary and flat out refused to do the final climatic kiss at the church. They had to angle it in a way to appear they were kissing while keeping their faces far apart. To put in in a bit of perspective, Walter Mattau was fresh off an Oscar win and been acting for years and now he's playing supporting role to someone twenty plus years younger than him in their second movie who wasn't a trained actor. It was slightly understandable. It wasn't her fault though as him being set in his ways and an angry man plays a large part in it too. But just how much did Walter Mattau dislike Barbra Streisand? Here are a few choice quotes:

 

Wow. I’m sure it was a two-way street, but I think I’d be pretty pissed if I were an Oscar-winning actor and some newb asked the director to give me a line read. I mean, daaaaaaamn...

[tomspanks 9039]

So Cam, why do you think Wall-E loved this movie so much?

[Quasar Sniffer 4174]

 

I think that is a big problem for me too. She is a widow and at the start of the movie she is only interested in Horace because he's a "half millionaire." How long was she married and why was she such a young widow? It all just makes her look like a gold digger. Unless unknown to us her former husband was actually very young as well and died in a freak accident or something.

 

This was also my big stumbling block with this movie. I'm not normally a Streisand fan, but she was terrifically charming in this movie. So I just wish there was an actual character development here with Dolly, or at least showing the history of the relationship between her and Horace and why she wanted to marry HIM. It seems like the entire state of New York was in love with her, so she could have had her pick any Rich eligible bachelors. And she was still clearly in love with her deceased husband, even if she was ready to move on with somebody else. What made Horace a worthy successor to what seems to have been the love of her life?

[Quasar Sniffer 4174]

I mean, this movie is 148 goddamn minutes. You think it could spare a couple of those to establish its central relationship.

[Cam Bert 8145]

So Cam, why do you think Wall-E loved this movie so much?

I will get into that later when I have a bit more time to write.

[Cam Bert 8145]

This was also my big stumbling block with this movie. I'm not normally a Streisand fan, but she was terrifically charming in this movie. So I just wish there was an actual character development here with Dolly, or at least showing the history of the relationship between her and Horace and why she wanted to marry HIM. It seems like the entire state of New York was in love with her, so she could have had her pick any Rich eligible bachelors. And she was still clearly in love with her deceased husband, even if she was ready to move on with somebody else. What made Horace a worthy successor to what seems to have been the love of her life?

This always makes me think how it was explained very well in Thank You For Smoking. You can add a single line that while not perfect is good enough to patch that one plot hole. Have Dolly look at a locket and the guy kinda looks like Horace and have her say "He's got your kind spirit" or something like that. Boom, solved. Not great but took all of 15 seconds and people would get it.

[grudlian. 4725]

 

This was also my big stumbling block with this movie. I'm not normally a Streisand fan, but she was terrifically charming in this movie. So I just wish there was an actual character development here with Dolly, or at least showing the history of the relationship between her and Horace and why she wanted to marry HIM. It seems like the entire state of New York was in love with her, so she could have had her pick any Rich eligible bachelors. And she was still clearly in love with her deceased husband, even if she was ready to move on with somebody else. What made Horace a worthy successor to what seems to have been the love of her life?

Never watch What's Up, Doc. Barbra Streisand bothers Ryan O'Neal into marrying her with even less motivation than here.

[tomspanks 9039]

This was also my big stumbling block with this movie. I'm not normally a Streisand fan, but she was terrifically charming in this movie. So I just wish there was an actual character development here with Dolly, or at least showing the history of the relationship between her and Horace and why she wanted to marry HIM. It seems like the entire state of New York was in love with her, so she could have had her pick any Rich eligible bachelors. And she was still clearly in love with her deceased husband, even if she was ready to move on with somebody else. What made Horace a worthy successor to what seems to have been the love of her life?

 

Towards the end, at Horace's store, Dolly says to Ephraim something like she's gonna marry Horace - it wouldn't be a marriage like what she and Ephraim used to have, but that she would make Horace happy. I took that to mean she's not necessarily marrying Horace for love and passion, but for companionship. Dolly would help Horace spread around that manure - since she knows everyone - and in turn she would take care of him (and occasionally clean out the drain). See, I think this premise would have worked better if she wasn't a 25 year old goddess on screen.

[Cam Bert 8145]

So Cam, why do you think Wall-E loved this movie so much?

 

As I said the characters or Cornelius and Barnaby are rather pure and innocent. In fact a lot of ways the character of Cornelius is a lot like Wall-E himself. For as long as he can remember all he has been doing in working as a stock boy and clerk at the feed shop. He has no free time. When he's not working he's sleeping at the shop and this has been going on for a long time. Similarly Wall-E as I said is living in a similar rut. Work, home, sleep. I suppose this makes the cockroach his Barnaby. Cornelius desperately wants to end this cycle. All he has known is Yonkers and wants to go be part of the bigger world with people. Wall-E lives alone and also wants to end his loneliness and be around people. Cornelius wants to be with a woman. Now, naturally you ask most any 28 year old virgin if they want to sleep with someone the answer is yes. Cornelius being human, wants this too, but being a bit shy and hindered by his lack of experience states he just wants a simple kiss but that's not even what he wants. He wants to live. As he tells the cop he has lived his 28 years in Yonkers and for the first time ever he feels alive. What has made him feel that way? Falling in love in a moment with Molloy for as he sings it only takes a moment to end his loneliness and feel loved all life long. This is why this movie is for Wall-E. He sees that all it takes is one moment, a time according to the song that is less than a second, and in that moment he will no long feel alone but rather finally feel alive. The song also states "And we'll recall when time runs out, that it only takes a moment to be loved a whole life long" which rings true for an ageless lonely person on a dead world in which time has run out.

 

Wall-E is a fantastic movie and one of the things that I absolutely love about it is in a weird way how beautifully and wonderfully it kinda captures the feelings of loneliness and depression to a lesser degree. Wall-E is a lonely character. We have no idea how long he has been alone but we can safely assume it is has been a very long time. I already stated the way his life is in a rut and meaningless. The movie further shows his loneliness with the way he finds these things that tell him about people that he's never and will never meet. Like he's trying to figure out what a normal life was and is. But these things are dead, and can only tell him so much. His only real glimpse into what being "alive" is all about is through Hello, Dolly. He doesn't truly live rather he follows a pattern and occasionally distracts himself with things that give him joy but ultimately his life is meaningless. When he meets Eve he finally has a chance to be alive to finally not be alone. But you can be in a crowd of people and still feel alone. You want that connection. You want your Cornelius and Molloy moment. All he wants to do is be with her and end his loneliness and give his life meaning. With Eve as a potential Molloy, he finally has a chance for that moment. How is that moment sung about in the song? When they touched, when Cornelius put his arm around Molloy. The song also ends with the two holding hands and thus two become one and a moment is achieved. This goes a bit beyond just two becoming one. In Japan there is a word called "skinship" which basically means physical contact for positive reinforcement. The idea of bonding or showing affection and care is closely linked to physical contact. This is something as simple as a high five, just basic playing, a hug or holding hands. This is something that science has proven and as most of you know as parents and partners is an important part of bonding and connecting. This is something Wall-E has been denied. Hand holding is seen as something as a intimate act in the west but is it? In other parts of the world it is sign of caring and affection and friendship. It is just connecting with a person who you care about. The holding hands is for Wall-E is more in line with this, not a sign of intimacy but a sign of affection and more so an end to his loneliness. It is a moment for him to feel loved and no longer alone and this can all be traced back to the specific scene he watches in Hello, Dolly.

 

TL;DR: Wall-E is Cornelius and both are looking to truly live and no longer be alone.

[Cam Bert 8145]

I apologize if I kinda lost the plot halfway through my last post. As I said I love the movie Wall-E and without getting too personal and bumming people out I connect a lot to the themes of loneliness in it. It hits very close to me, and can be hard for me talk about with out getting overly emotional or in my head about things. I think I did a bit with the hand holding bit. Wall-E does play this up in a love story kind of way, but for me anyway, it is not so much about the love but more just about connecting with another person and feeling, as odd as this sounds to be using in talk about robots, a human connection.

 

If anything finally watching Hello, Dolly and seeing the Cornelius connection makes me appreciate Wall-E a bit more.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

 

Towards the end, at Horace's store, Dolly says to Ephraim something like she's gonna marry Horace - it wouldn't be a marriage like what she and Ephraim used to have, but that she would make Horace happy. I took that to mean she's not necessarily marrying Horace for love and passion, but for companionship. Dolly would help Horace spread around that manure - since she knows everyone - and in turn she would take care of him (and occasionally clean out the drain). See, I think this premise would have worked better if she wasn't a 25 year old goddess on screen.

Is the stage musical different? It made Carol Channing a legend and is still her signature role. I'm curious how old she was when she started playing Dolly.

[tomspanks 9039]

TL;DR: Wall-E is Cornelius and both are looking to truly live and no longer be alone.

 

OR, is Wall-E actually Dall-E (sorry not sorry) and no longer wants to live by himself? Plus, Wall-E is a fixer/doer who just wants to help humanity, like Dolly! And Eve does a pretty good grump.

 

Is the stage musical different? It made Carol Channing a legend and is still her signature role. I'm curious how old she was when she started playing Dolly.

 

Not sure about Carol Channing, but when I saw Bette Midler in Hello Dolly she was ~70.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Is the stage musical different? It made Carol Channing a legend and is still her signature role. I'm curious how old she was when she started playing Dolly.

I looked Carol up. She was 42 or 43 when she played Dolly on stage. (She had also played Lorelei Lee in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes on stage so she was known before Dolly. I was mistaken.) Michael Crawford seems really young but he was 26 or 27 when playing Cornelius. I thought maybe Gene Kelly had a knack for flip-flopping ages but I guess not.

[Cam Bert 8145]

 

OR, is Wall-E actually Dall-E (sorry not sorry) and no longer wants to live by himself? Plus, Wall-E is a fixer/doer who just wants to help humanity, like Dolly! And Eve does a pretty good grump.

 

I can support this idea as well. His locket is his VHS copy of Hello, Dolly.

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

Okay, I finally got to watch last night, and I have a bunch to say, although I'll spread it out over a few posts.

 

First of all, I felt the same amazed energy at the beginning of this with Barbra's first few scenes as I did with Liza when we watched 'Cabaret'. She's someone I'm so used to thinking of as an older woman, but seeing her fresh-faced and with all that brilliant star power, she bowled me over. Unlike Liza, though, Barbra started to grate on me not long into the movie. As we've all noted already, her character arc is mercenary and unlikeable - she's greeting everyone she sees as though she knows everyone only to acknowledge later that they're all strangers, which makes her constant 'about the town' act more of a façade than anything. The waiters seem happiest to see her (and to her credit she knows all their names, some a little sleazier than others!) but otherwise it seems to be all a big act.

 

The biggest issue I had with this is that when you see the Broadway musical, it's much more about Cornelius and Irene than it is about Dolly. Dolly is the fixer, the facilitator, and while she's the title character with the giant musical numbers wrapped around her, in the movie, Barbra is front and centre at all times, poking into scenes, with extra songs (they criminally cut one great song - 'Motherhood' - and one so-so song - 'I Put My Hand In' - to add extra solo songs for Barbra), and make it without any doubt Dolly's movie. But, of course, that unbalances the show and puts into great perspective the fact that there's not much to Dolly. No flashbacks, no images of Ephraim, no idea of where she got her money, or what actually happened in the past at the Harmonia Gardens. She's a cypher designed to get Cornelius (and Horace too) married, and putting the whole show on her back means that we just notice how little there is to her. I have way more to say about other things, but this should do it for this one. Boo to the extra songs ('Leave Everything to Me' and especially the terrible 'Love is Only Love' that was cut from 'Mame' and just dumped into this film)!

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

The biggest issue I had with this is that when you see the Broadway musical, it's much more about Cornelius and Irene than it is about Dolly. Dolly is the fixer, the facilitator, and while she's the title character with the giant musical numbers wrapped around her, in the movie, Barbra is front and centre at all times, poking into scenes, with extra songs (they criminally cut one great song - 'Motherhood' - and one so-so song - 'I Put My Hand In' - to add extra solo songs for Barbra), and make it without any doubt Dolly's movie. But, of course, that unbalances the show and puts into great perspective the fact that there's not much to Dolly. No flashbacks, no images of Ephraim, no idea of where she got her money, or what actually happened in the past at the Harmonia Gardens. She's a cypher designed to get Cornelius (and Horace too) married, and putting the whole show on her back means that we just notice how little there is to her. I have way more to say about other things, but this should do it for this one. Boo to the extra songs ('Leave Everything to Me' and especially the terrible 'Love is Only Love' that was cut from 'Mame' and just dumped into this film)!

I reflexively was ready to disagree with you about 'Leave Everything to Me' because I would have hated the movie if it hadn't started with that song. Without that song there wouldn't be any energy for you to be bowled over by. On reflection though I can agree it's unnecessary if Dolly isn't the focus. If they had kept the movie closer to the stage show the song would have been out of place. I can completely agree about 'Love is Only Love'. That dragged the movie down for me.

[Cam Bert 8145]

Okay, I finally got to watch last night, and I have a bunch to say, although I'll spread it out over a few posts.

 

First of all, I felt the same amazed energy at the beginning of this with Barbra's first few scenes as I did with Liza when we watched 'Cabaret'. She's someone I'm so used to thinking of as an older woman, but seeing her fresh-faced and with all that brilliant star power, she bowled me over. Unlike Liza, though, Barbra started to grate on me not long into the movie. As we've all noted already, her character arc is mercenary and unlikeable - she's greeting everyone she sees as though she knows everyone only to acknowledge later that they're all strangers, which makes her constant 'about the town' act more of a façade than anything. The waiters seem happiest to see her (and to her credit she knows all their names, some a little sleazier than others!) but otherwise it seems to be all a big act.

 

The biggest issue I had with this is that when you see the Broadway musical, it's much more about Cornelius and Irene than it is about Dolly. Dolly is the fixer, the facilitator, and while she's the title character with the giant musical numbers wrapped around her, in the movie, Barbra is front and centre at all times, poking into scenes, with extra songs (they criminally cut one great song - 'Motherhood' - and one so-so song - 'I Put My Hand In' - to add extra solo songs for Barbra), and make it without any doubt Dolly's movie. But, of course, that unbalances the show and puts into great perspective the fact that there's not much to Dolly. No flashbacks, no images of Ephraim, no idea of where she got her money, or what actually happened in the past at the Harmonia Gardens. She's a cypher designed to get Cornelius (and Horace too) married, and putting the whole show on her back means that we just notice how little there is to her. I have way more to say about other things, but this should do it for this one. Boo to the extra songs ('Leave Everything to Me' and especially the terrible 'Love is Only Love' that was cut from 'Mame' and just dumped into this film)!

I think you are spot on with this. They go out of there way to make this movie about Dolly when it really shouldn't be. It's like some executive was sitting in his office asking why there wasn't a lot of Dolly in this story called "Hello Dolly." Which begs the question if you wanted to make an adaptation of Hello Dolly and a starring vehicle for Babs, why not cast her as Molloy rather than Dolly?

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Found this on Michael Crawford's IMDB page:

Was cast for the role of Cornelius Hackl in Hello, Dolly! (1969), by Gene Kelly after auditioning in a 1960s outfit of striped blue pants and a checkered shirt (after changing his clothes numerous times) with a bleeding (from shaving too many times) face and trying to tap dance. Kelly said, "What we are looking for (for Cornelius Hackl) is an attractive idiot. My wife thinks you're attractive, and I think you're an idiot".

 

(I never knew Michael's original last-name was Dumbell-Smith. Still scanning the page to see if it explains where he picked Crawford from.)

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

Found this on Michael Crawford's IMDB page:

 

 

(I never knew Michael's original last-name was Dumbell-Smith. Still scanning the page to see if it explains where he picked Crawford from.)

Every single time Crawford pulled a stupid face as Cornelius, I'd turn to my wife and say "the original Phantom of the Opera." There's so much more of Frank Spencer in his Cornelius - have you all seen 'Some Mother Do Ave Em'? For some reason it was on TV all the time when I was a kid. I get the feeling that Cornelius was his audition!

 

 

Contrast that with this, 17 years later...

 

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

I reflexively was ready to disagree with you about 'Leave Everything to Me' because I would have hated the movie if it hadn't started with that song. Without that song there wouldn't be any energy for you to be bowled over by. On reflection though I can agree it's unnecessary if Dolly isn't the focus. If they had kept the movie closer to the stage show the song would have been out of place. I can completely agree about 'Love is Only Love'. That dragged the movie down for me.

I completely agree about the energy that 'Leave Everything' brings to the movie, and to be honest it replaces another, lower-energy Dolly song in 'I Put My Hand In':

 

 

(also, listen to Carol Channing sounding like an old lady!)

 

I have way less of an issue with that replacement than the 'Love is Only Love' insertion (and the fucking TWENTY MINUTE Harmonia Gardens epic - so much chewing of the furniture in 'Hello Dolly', good lord), but it got me on guard that something was up and that changes were coming.

[Cam Bert 8145]

Every single time Crawford pulled a stupid face as Cornelius, I'd turn to my wife and say "the original Phantom of the Opera." There's so much more of Frank Spencer in his Cornelius - have you all seen 'Some Mother Do Ave Em'? For some reason it was on TV all the time when I was a kid. I get the feeling that Cornelius was his audition!

He may be the original but he wasn't the best Phantom, right?

 

 

 

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

He may be the original but he wasn't the best Phantom, right?

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mPW16cWaoI

 

Jesus, look how hard those engineers are working.

 

My daughter is badgering me to watch 'Phantom' (of the Opera, not of the Paradise) - "when can we watch the Christine musical, daddy?" - and I know the easiest viewing experience for her will be the film version, but I can't quite bear the idea of sitting through that awful thing again. I'm leaning towards the Royal Albert Hall 25th Anniversary filmed stage version, unless anyone has any better tips?

[Cam Bert 8145]

Since we're talking about Michael Crawford apparently Walter Matthau clashed with him but for completely different reasons.

 

During a break in shooting the two went to a local race track. There they noticed that one of the race horse's name was "Hello Dolly" and Crawford thought it was a sign and they should bet on the horse. Matthau refused saying it reminded him too much of Streisand and didn't bet any money. Crawford went ahead and bet on the horse and the horse won. This infuriated Matthau and he refused to speak to Crawford for the remainder of the shoot.

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

Since we're talking about Michael Crawford apparently Walter Matthau clashed with him but for completely different reasons.

 

During a break in shooting the two went to a local race track. There they noticed that one of the race horse's name was "Hello Dolly" and Crawford thought it was a sign and they should bet on the horse. Matthau refused saying it reminded him too much of Streisand and didn't bet any money. Crawford went ahead and bet on the horse and the horse won. This infuriated Matthau and he refused to speak to Crawford for the remainder of the shoot.

Not to be indelicate, but until I hear some alternate takes on him from this period, Walter Matthau sounds like a complete cock.