All About Eve

[Cam Bert 8145]

6 minutes ago, tomspanks said:

LOL, is it because you recently watched The Back-up Plan?

 

Maybe...

[Cam Bert 8145]

7 minutes ago, AlmostAGhost said:

Hmm I think it is sort of in between. I can't remember if this was true, or ever expressed, but I assumed she was an actress at the very least before they met. 

So I took it as, in the beginning, Eve wanting to be a famous actress, be around actors, etc., in general; but then as she ended up in this place right next to Margo, taking over for her was the way she saw to become one/famous/rewrite her life.

If I recall correctly in her origin story she tells in the beginning she does mention doing community theater, but then again we later find out that large elements of that story such as her husband and San Francisco were lies. So it's a bit of a tough call whether or not the acting bit is true or just another made up detail to help sell her story. 

[AlmostAGhost 2718]

Just now, Cam Bert said:

If I recall correctly in her origin story she tells in the beginning she does mention doing community theater, but then again we later find out that large elements of that story such as her husband and San Francisco were lies. So it's a bit of a tough call whether or not the acting bit is true or just another made up detail to help sell her story. 

Yea it could be a lie, but she does in fact turn out to be a very good actress right?  She must have some experience at it.

[tomspanks 9039]

2 minutes ago, AlmostAGhost said:

Yea it could be a lie, but she does in fact turn out to be a very good actress right?  She must have some experience at it.

Well yeah, her whole persona was an "act" 

[taylor anne photo 11311]

21 minutes ago, AlmostAGhost said:

The movie's strength and weakness is Anne Baxter, whose Eve lacks the presence to be a plausible rival to Margo, but is convincing as the scheming fan. When Eve understudies for Margo and gets great reviews, Mankiewicz wisely never shows us her performance; better to imagine it, and focus on the girl whose look is a little too intense, whose eyes a little too focused, whose modesty is somehow suspect.

 

But to be fair, we never actually see Margo's performances of this play either. Everything we see is post the performances. I also found it funny that we never got to see Miss Cresswell act either. It's just assumed that she couldn't hold a candle to Eve and would be subjected to TV, but we get a glimpse that she's nothing to throw away when she goes from being disgusted by Max to infatuated with him in a heartbeat. (Which, at first I thought that's where Eve was getting the ideas to sleep with Bill and Lloyd but then we find out her con had been going on for far longer than when she met Miss Cresswell and Addison.)

[AlmostAGhost 2718]

14 minutes ago, tomspanks said:

Well yeah, her whole persona was an "act" 

So just lying makes you a great stage actress?  Didn't she get raves for her performance?  Certainly it takes more than that?

But yea, I think this goes to what Taylor pointed out... we don't ever see any of them act, so that makes this all sort of a (very interesting) unknown. Heck, is Margo even any good?  Or just popular?

(Also as an aside, you all are cool and I enjoy digging in on these films/stories with you.)

[tomspanks 9039]

2 minutes ago, AlmostAGhost said:

So just lying makes you a great stage actress?  Didn't she get raves for her performance?  Certainly it takes more than that?

But yea, I think this goes to what Taylor pointed out... we don't ever see any of them act, so that makes this all sort of a (very interesting) unknown. Heck, is Margo even any good?  Or just popular?

No, being a good liar doesn't makes you a great stage actress, but I was poking fun at Eve that she was always "on" when she was around Margo and the group.  

[Cam Bert 8145]

I'm not going to multi-quote you all on this but I think the thing that is brilliant about the film is that as pointed out we never see Eve or Margo act on stage but we do see them act. They both in different ways and and different times are acting with each other or others. As pointed out Eve is "acting" with her fake story and shy innocent persona. It's a fully crafted character and there are only a few rare moments before the climax that we see her as her true self and out of character. Meanwhile we have Margo, who is overall I think more genuine, but she has an image to maintain and to maintain that she acts a certain way. Think of the scene mentioned on the podcast in which nobody is looking she runs down the stairs, before and after that moment when she's with people she is acting. She's also playing the character of "Margo" instead of just being Margo. That's why I think it's a great twist to the film at the end of it Margo grows to the point that she doesn't need to act anymore and can just be Margo and is happier than she ever was. Meanwhile Eve is now stuck playing this character and she's not too happy and while getting accolades and awards she's unhappy at being stuck into this persona she crafted for herself.

[AlmostAGhost 2718]

I'm bumping my Eve rating up half a star because of our discussions, and realizing just how much interesting depth and scope there is to it.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

13 minutes ago, AlmostAGhost said:

I'm bumping my Eve rating up half a star because of our discussions, and realizing just how much interesting depth and scope there is to it.

I think this is why I loved it so much. It's easy to chalk it up as "women be crazy" but there's so much more depth to this story than anything I've seen in a long time (especially from that era). Even with Eve, I'm reluctant to just completely chalk her up as a 100% evil villain because of the things we now know about what women have had to do in order to feel like they can make it in acting. She makes those choices herself of course, but did she make these choices because she is a bad person or was it because she truly felt that was the only way she could get somewhere? Either way she didn't make the right choices and while she certainly became the "It" girl we saw in that ending that her time was already coming to an end (at least in appearances) and she was left alone and vulnerable to someone abusive like Addison and a younger woman that ended up being just like her. This story has so many layers to it that I want to keep peeling at and dissecting, and that makes me overly excited.

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

23 hours ago, WatchOutForSnakes said:

Good point. Perhaps its more accurate to say I'm bummed that it seemed that marriage was tipping point in her character arc.

Yeah, I had this discussion with my wife. It's hard to detach the movie making a "statement" about women's roles in society from how much it's simply reflecting society's attitude towards women at the time. Not sure we can expect a movie from 1950 to account for the same progressive feminist ideas we have today.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

32 minutes ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

Yeah, I had this discussion with my wife. It's hard to detach the movie making a "statement" about women's roles in society from how much it's simply reflecting society's attitude towards women at the time. Not sure we can expect a movie from 1950 to account for the same progressive feminist ideas we have today.

I still disagree about some parts of this. I don't think getting married suddenly defined her, which is what a lot of the issues surrounding women's roles in movies seems to reflect, but rather Margo suddenly came to realize who she really was and what was important to her, which was Bill and her's love for each other. She had already been with this man for years but society's and the business's view on married women kept her from taking things to the next step. When she announces their upcoming nuptials, Karen seems shocked that she is settling down and Margo talks about this being the next stage of her life. Well, she's already 40 at this point so it's not like she was truly throwing away things that meant something to her just because she was expected to get married. In my opinion, she was just now more comfortable with being herself, and she herself wanted to be with Bill for the rest of her life. That is just as feminist as if she had told them all she never needed a man and was only going to act until the day she died. Because she got to decide on that without anyone else's thoughts in mind (obviously Bill would have a say in that marriage part, but it doesn't look like he is forcing her into it).

Obviously in that era they wanted women to be seen as housewives, so believe me I get this frustration that everyone is sharing, but I just don't think that Margo's ending is anti-feminist. She still is granted a choice and she makes it. That's the most feminist thing about this whole movie.

[Cameron H. 23786]

1 hour ago, taylorannephoto said:

I still disagree about some parts of this. I don't think getting married suddenly defined her, which is what a lot of the issues surrounding women's roles in movies seems to reflect, but rather Margo suddenly came to realize who she really was and what was important to her, which was Bill and her's love for each other. She had already been with this man for years but society's and the business's view on married women kept her from taking things to the next step. When she announces their upcoming nuptials, Karen seems shocked that she is settling down and Margo talks about this being the next stage of her life. Well, she's already 40 at this point so it's not like she was truly throwing away things that meant something to her just because she was expected to get married. In my opinion, she was just now more comfortable with being herself, and she herself wanted to be with Bill for the rest of her life. That is just as feminist as if she had told them all she never needed a man and was only going to act until the day she died. Because she got to decide on that without anyone else's thoughts in mind (obviously Bill would have a say in that marriage part, but it doesn't look like he is forcing her into it).

Obviously in that era they wanted women to be seen as housewives, so believe me I get this frustration that everyone is sharing, but I just don't think that Margo's ending is anti-feminist. She still is granted a choice and she makes it. That's the most feminist thing about this whole movie.

This is how I felt as well. She’s making the decision to get married based on what *she* wants - not Bill, or societal pressure, or whatever. Feminists are allowed to fall in love and get married, too

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

1 hour ago, taylorannephoto said:

I still disagree about some parts of this. I don't think getting married suddenly defined her, which is what a lot of the issues surrounding women's roles in movies seems to reflect, but rather Margo suddenly came to realize who she really was and what was important to her, which was Bill and her's love for each other. She had already been with this man for years but society's and the business's view on married women kept her from taking things to the next step. When she announces their upcoming nuptials, Karen seems shocked that she is settling down and Margo talks about this being the next stage of her life. Well, she's already 40 at this point so it's not like she was truly throwing away things that meant something to her just because she was expected to get married. In my opinion, she was just now more comfortable with being herself, and she herself wanted to be with Bill for the rest of her life. That is just as feminist as if she had told them all she never needed a man and was only going to act until the day she died. Because she got to decide on that without anyone else's thoughts in mind (obviously Bill would have a say in that marriage part, but it doesn't look like he is forcing her into it).

Obviously in that era they wanted women to be seen as housewives, so believe me I get this frustration that everyone is sharing, but I just don't think that Margo's ending is anti-feminist. She still is granted a choice and she makes it. That's the most feminist thing about this whole movie.

Yeah, there's certainly more complexity to the writing here, so I also wouldn't say it's JUST about "being a woman" meaning "getting married."

That said, if this move were made today you'd probably have to add some lines for Margo or someone else to clarify that getting married and scaling back her career is her choice, etc.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

13 minutes ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

Yeah, there's certainly more complexity to the writing here, so I also wouldn't say it's JUST about "being a woman" meaning "getting married."

That said, if this move were made today you'd probably have to add some lines for Margo or someone else to clarify that getting married and scaling back her career is her choice, etc.

I think that's a wildly unrealistic conversation though. Women don't actually say "Well, I'm doing this for me," when it comes to marriage unless specifically asked. So, if Karen had added to her surprise that she didn't think Margo would actually want to get married then we could get such a specific line, but I believe it's all there in between the lines that she's actually saying. By that point in the movie we've already gotten to know Margo and she's already had her "being a woman" monologue in the car, so we know that this is something she is battling with. And even if this was created now I would still be able to see those nuances to this conversation. I don't need her to say anything point blank because I know for a fact that Margo Channing doesn't do a thing like that if she doesn't want to do it.

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

14 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

I think that's a wildly unrealistic conversation though. Women don't actually say "Well, I'm doing this for me," when it comes to marriage unless specifically asked. So, if Karen had added to her surprise that she didn't think Margo would actually want to get married then we could get such a specific line, but I believe it's all there in between the lines that she's actually saying. By that point in the movie we've already gotten to know Margo and she's already had her "being a woman" monologue in the car, so we know that this is something she is battling with. And even if this was created now I would still be able to see those nuances to this conversation. I don't need her to say anything point blank because I know for a fact that Margo Channing doesn't do a thing like that if she doesn't want to do it.

I mean, you'd have to smooth it out better than I did. I just think that in a modern movie this would likely be addressed more head-on, while in a movie from 1950 there's no assumption that the audience would question Margo's desire to "settle down" with marriage.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

1 minute ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

I mean, you'd have to smooth it out better than I did. I just think that in a modern movie this would likely be addressed more head-on, while in a movie from 1950 there's no assumption that the audience would question Margo's desire to "settle down" with marriage.

I know exactly what you meant, and I still think that's wildly unrealistic. If a movie in 2018 had some girl spell out that she's getting married for herself I would roll my eyes so hard they probably would fall out of their sockets. I think it's more fucked up to question any woman's motive to marry if it's not specifically spelled out to be a terrible relationship. So my point is that even watching this movie from 1950 I do not question Margo's desire in 2018 because this is a realistic character with realistic desires and troubles.

[WatchOutForSnakes 807]

17 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

I know exactly what you meant, and I still think that's wildly unrealistic. If a movie in 2018 had some girl spell out that she's getting married for herself I would roll my eyes so hard they probably would fall out of their sockets. I think it's more fucked up to question any woman's motive to marry if it's not specifically spelled out to be a terrible relationship. So my point is that even watching this movie from 1950 I do not question Margo's desire in 2018 because this is a realistic character with realistic desires and troubles.

I'm totally on board with this train of thought and think my initial reading of the scene was probably a bit of auto-pilot analysis having been so annoyed by and used to movies that posit marriage is the only success women really need. 

And I do think Margo and Bill ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after. Their relationship is golden. 

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

31 minutes ago, WatchOutForSnakes said:

I'm totally on board with this train of thought and think my initial reading of the scene was probably a bit of auto-pilot analysis having been so annoyed by and used to movies that posit marriage is the only success women really need. 

I can only say that this wasn't something that I came up with myself, rather my wife loudly commented during the scene, "Because a woman has to get married, right?" So I don't think you're wildly out of bounds in bringing it up.

But yes, the movie brings more complexity to the characters and their relationships, so I agree with the argument that it's not as cut-and-dried as that. I'll stand my my suggestion that the scene would be re-worked a bit in a modern context though. Not a lot, just a little bit.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

1 hour ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

But yes, the movie brings more complexity to the characters and their relationships, so I agree with the argument that it's not as cut-and-dried as that. I'll stand my my suggestion that the scene would be re-worked a bit in a modern context though. Not a lot, just a little bit.

Then you're just not listening to what I'm saying in response because you keep saying the same thing without further acknowledgement that IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE ALTERED AT ALL IN A "MODERN" CONTEXT FOR IT TO MAKE SENSE WHY SHE WANTS TO GET MARRIED.

I never said anything about man vs woman bringing this up, and even acknowledged that I understand the frustrations because I too look for those kinds of things in movies, but I personally disagree about THIS specific movie being put into that mindset. The monologue in the car shows the inner struggle she had as an unmarried woman of 40 with her own career in 1950 who is very much in love with a man but also wants her stardom, but later at the dinner she has solved that inner conflict and it makes sense why she makes the decision she does. Even in a modern 2018 movie, if you take the EXACT same scenes it would still make sense to me. I don't want it to be spelled out because that does nothing for the character.

[Cameron H. 23786]

44 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

Then you're just not listening to what I'm saying in response because you keep saying the same thing without further acknowledgement that IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE ALTERED AT ALL IN A "MODERN" CONTEXT FOR IT TO MAKE SENSE WHY SHE WANTS TO GET MARRIED.

I never said anything about man vs woman bringing this up, and even acknowledged that I understand the frustrations because I too look for those kinds of things in movies, but I personally disagree about THIS specific movie being put into that mindset. The monologue in the car shows the inner struggle she had as an unmarried woman of 40 with her own career in 1950 who is very much in love with a man but also wants her stardom, but later at the dinner she has solved that inner conflict and it makes sense why she makes the decision she does. Even in a modern 2018 movie, if you take the EXACT same scenes it would still make sense to me. I don't want it to be spelled out because that does nothing for the character.

I agree. What's great about All About Eve is that Margo and Bill are established as equals right from the start. He never once tries to convince her that in order to be happy, they need to get married or anything like that. He respects her decisions, and he never pressures her. The movie allows Margo full agency. She's making decisions on her own terms. And as long as that's the case, it doesn't matter what decade the movie was made or released.

Marriage isn't inherently sexist. If they're going into it as partners, then that's great and we should be happy.   

Now if everyone had been telling her "Why don't you quit this life? Settle down and get married" and she was like "No, no, no." Then, at the end of the film, because of their pestering, she quits acting and marries Bill and is like, "Oh! Now I know true happiness! Why didn't I do this before?" THAT would be a problem.

[Susan* 135]

On 8/11/2018 at 11:33 AM, WatchOutForSnakes said:

 

ETA: It bummed me out that Margo was instantly ready to give up the spotlight as soon as she could be a "woman" after marrying Bill.  

I've loved this movie forever and have seen it many times.  Dated movies don't usually bother me, I just register that it's dated and move on--I love many really old movies.  But this part of the movie, where Margo virtually disappears, I've always taken it as statement about what marriage does to women--even career minded one.  It's like the articles that would have been in Ladies Home Journal or similar magazines of this era about actresses.  It affirms that wife is the most worthy job to aspire to for any woman.  

So I've seen this movie at least a dozen times but sometimes I don't watch to the very end.  :)

[tomspanks 9039]

Maybe I'm misinterpreting the posts here, but I don't think Margo plans to give up acting when she gets married.  In the Cub Room, where she announces her upcoming wedding, she declares "no more make believe, off stage or on" and describes her plans to play "grown up women" in future plays.  

Speak of "modern interpretations," I see Margo as a kind of Liz Lemon.  Successful career, husband and kids, and delicious sandwiches from NJ.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

23 minutes ago, tomspanks said:

Maybe I'm misinterpreting the posts here, but I don't think Margo plans to give up acting when she gets married.  In the Cub Room, where she announces her upcoming wedding, she declares "no more make believe, off stage or on" and describes her plans to play "grown up women" in future plays.  

Speak of "modern interpretations," I see Margo as a kind of Liz Lemon.  Successful career, husband and kids, and delicious sandwiches from NJ.

Exactly! I don't think I worded my posts correctly in that sense, because when I say she "made her choice" it was purely to stop putting herself in these lead roles that were meant for women 20 years younger than her. Declaring no more make believe then to me means she's accepted herself as she is and doesn't have to continue acting like something she's not. On stage or off.

[DanEngler 5249]

Assorted footnotes:

• Like Paul, I also assumed Addison DeWitt was gay from the outset, and I realized it was due to how much he reminded me of a young Stephen Fry.
• Did anyone else notice the really odd use of rear-projection when Eve and DeWitt were "walking" to Eve's apartment? Why?
• I've said this before but You Must Remember This is a true work of art and I hope Karina is a frequent return guest!

P.S. Facebook users are the balcony monsters of Unspooled listenership.