Episode 219 - Drop Dead Fred: LIVE! (w/ Casey Wilson)

[WatchOutForSnakes 807]

On 8/3/2019 at 12:29 PM, The_Triple_Lindy said:

Fully Team Fuck This Movie. It's tearing us apart!!!!

I'm way late to the game on this one, but ... exactly! 

Without having read through the whole thread, here's my take: Lizzie is clearly having psychotic breaks. Fred (as Imaginary in "imaginary friend" suggests), is a figure of her mind. She hallucinates him there as an entity separate from herself, and he encourages her to cause mayhem to gain attention and/or hurt her mom. We, as viewers, see Fred as Lizzie sees him, but we can't impose her onto his physical nature - as in, when he does an up-the-skirt look at her mom, it's not Lizzie actually looking up her mom's skirt, or even imagining herself looking up the skirt, she was imagining Fred as the type of guy who would do that. Whether that means she's also curious about looking up other girls shirts  - who's to say. 

But fuck this movie. Carrie Fisher was the only good thing about it! 

[Mattrix 17]

On 8/4/2019 at 8:48 AM, Cameron H. said:

he shouldn’t have to/get to “clarify” on Twitter

Well, he did, and he did it again on the mini-episode, and team sanity won the polls.  So nany nany poo poo

[Cameron H. 23786]

24 minutes ago, Mattrix said:

Well, he did, and he did it again on the mini-episode, and team sanity won the polls.  So nany nany poo poo

My only point is that it’s BS to continue debating your point when the people you’re debating against no longer have the opportunity to respond. I don’t care that he did, but it’s a pretty disingenuous way to debate. 

[Mattrix 17]

June was still debating him on Twitter, he was continuing the debate with someone who could respond, and um, we’re all here debating their points and so...they are too

[i'll hold the mike 165]

Epilogue: this episode was recorded at the Wilshire Ebell Theatre, not the Bell Theatre (which does not exist, at least in Los Angeles). I discovered this as I started gathering stats on live episode venues for possible inclusion in the HDTGM infograph site.

[jerahmaya77 1]

Just watching DDF for the first time (after all these years) and come to find that it was filmed in my hometown of Minneapolis.  Awesome to see the city way I remember as a younger lad, far more chill and sleepy...long before gentrification and condos came to turn this place into a butthole of tech bros, pedal pubs, Apple stores and gridlock traffic.  I'm allready adding this to my list of Mpls Movies.  Not sure if I'm team Fred or team Sanity yet...but I'll check back in later.  

Edited August 13, 2019 by jerahmaya77
spelling

[Jesse Carrigan 119]

On 8/3/2019 at 11:59 AM, Omaxem said:

As someone who sees himself as a major Car Guy, let me say this ( to Paul, because in my mind he reads these, and to everybody else ) 

Ahem:

.

.

.

MINIVANS ARE NICE.

Congratulations Paul, on buying a car that a) makes sense for you and your family; and that b) YOU like.

Fuck that guy. Eww.

Minivans are great. I was never more thankful for our van than when we were moving into our apartment and could fit a loveseat into the back with no problem. I'm on vacation and I miss it.

[Mr.P2U 0]

Just seeing the title of this movie gave me flashbacks.  I actually saw this in the theater, well some of it.  This movie had the honor of being the first movie I left in the middle of.  I'd sat through plenty of boring or just plain bad movies and the thought never crossed my mind that I could just stop watching and leave.  This movie ended that era of ignorance for me.   I remember turning to my friend, whispering "this is fucking terrible," and getting up and walking out.  He was right there with me.

[TedKetterman 5]

I love this film and Rik Mayall will always be funny to me.

[doxrus 54]

It occurs to me that the Second Opinion writers on Amazon often have positive, strong personal connections to #HDTHM films and the Team makes fun of them. How is this different from responses of the members Team Fred?  So if someone loves Gooby or Xanadu they’re a moron, but not so if they love DDF?

[theworstbuddhist 572]

2 hours ago, doxrus said:

It occurs to me that the Second Opinion writers on Amazon often have positive, strong personal connections to #HDTHM films and the Team makes fun of them. How is this different from responses of the members Team Fred?  So if someone loves Gooby or Xanadu they’re a moron, but not so if they love DDF?

You are definitely a moron if you love Gooby.

I think that if you love something that is generally rejected by critics and audiences, because it has a personal connection for you, that's fine. If you want to write a review on Amazon claiming that it's a perfect and essential work of art, which is what a five star review implies, that is inviting the light ridicule that the podcast provides.

[WatchOutForSnakes 807]

On 8/13/2019 at 7:33 PM, jerahmaya77 said:

Just watching DDF for the first time (after all these years) and come to find that it was filmed in my hometown of Minneapolis.  Awesome to see the city way I remember as a younger lad, far more chill and sleepy...long before gentrification and condos came to turn this place into a butthole of tech bros, pedal pubs, Apple stores and gridlock traffic.  I'm allready adding this to my list of Mpls Movies.  Not sure if I'm team Fred or team Sanity yet...but I'll check back in later.  

This was filmed at Paisley Park, Prince's estate. Funny enough, that was not highlighted during the VIP tour I took this summer. 

[whatishappening 1]

Long time listener, first time commenter.

I saw this as a kid and actually didn't like it so I listened to the episode and with that mindset, firmly Team Sanity. Then I decided to rent it to really dig in - I actually like it more than I remember.

Also does Lizzie's father have the same accent as Fred? I wonder if there is some sort of correlation between the two.

[bryanmode 1]

Drop Dead Fred = 

[BoBoBlonkers 1]

Just for the hell of it, I reedited this movie... and took out Fred.  I call it "Drop Dead Fred Minus Drop Dread Fred."

https://www.facebook.com/pg/TheMicaMonster/videos/?ref=page_internal

Youtube, Vimeo and Daily Motion wouldn't take it either because of copyright shit or video size so I had to put it on Facebook, but no worries it's not my private account.

I hope you all like it.  I chopped out a bunch of shit at the beginning, but Fred doesn't start not appearing until around 10 minutes in.  I think it's pretty funny.  Particularly the breakfast scene, lunch with Mickey, and the ending.  But there're a bunch of gems along the way.  Enjoy.

[Hellboobs 21]

Wow. What an episode. I'm totally "team Fred" in the sense that I think Jason and June have interpreted the intent of the film correctly. Fred is clearly a representation of the childish personality that Elizabeth (Phoebe Cates) was forced to repress. For most of us, as we grow into adults we learn how to restrain our childish emotions and impulses. But, that is not the progression allowed for Elizabeth: her mother expects her to behave like an adult before she knows how. As a result. So, instead of integrating these childish parts of ourselves, she literally and figuratively boxes them up.

As an adult, Elizabeth is trapped in a pathological state of self-repression (which is just as "insane" but more acceptable than a total lack of control.) But, trauma strains the psychological walls she built to contain her adolescent impulses and when those walls come down those parts of herself she'd repressed come crashing back into life, as represented by Fred. She fights these impulses and tries to put them back in a box, but ultimately she learns to love and integrate those aspects of her childhood personality into her adult self.

Is the movie perfect? Absolutely not. But, June & Jason are spot on about the psychology underpinning it--if not the political message.

Jason is surprisingly insightful about childhood psychology. I share his resentment of the way adults view children in this unrealistic state of total innocence. Kids are aware of "adult" things like death, violence, and sex. They may not have an adult understanding of them, but they're aware of and certainly curious about them. That's what Fred is. He doesn't want to hurt Elizabeth and he's not really interested in sex, but he's playing with these concepts as a kid would. 

The "kiss" at the end was not sexual. It was just a visual way to show that Elizabeth had come to appreciate the feelings and desires she had as a kid. She had learned that being an adult doesn't mean you have to completely repress all "childish" emotions, but it also doesn't mean indulging them without any restraint at all.

Listening to the HDTGM episode, I was baffled at why Paul and Casey (and apparently a lot of the audience) couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that Fred and everything he appeared to do was a product of Elizabeth's imagination. Everything we see in the movie, including other peoples' imaginary friends, is merely what Elizabeth imagines.

[Hellboobs 21]

On 8/5/2019 at 6:47 PM, Cameron H. said:

To be fair to doxrus, they were responding to my claim that Team Sanity seemed to have a more analytical approach to their criticism and Team Fred having a more emotional approach. In that post, I didn't mean to imply any negative connotations with the use of the word "emotional" - especially considering I'm Team Fred myself  I just didn't want too much to be laid on doxrus when I was the one who brought it up. I didn't mean for it to sound like one interpretation is better than the other, or that there was an insurmountable divide between the two. I think doxrus' point, and the point I was trying to make, is that ultimately, when you are having a two-sided debate, and one side is affected emotionally by a piece of art and the other side isn't, it's difficult (but not necessarily impossible) to rectify that. And, as played out (hilariously) in the episode, it often just leads to a circular argument. They aren't suggesting that we are "blinded by emotion" anymore than we believe them to be "cold, emotionless robots."  But you can't make someone feel something if they just don't. I can go on and on about how something affected me on an emotional level, but if you don't feel that same feeling at all (not to suggest that you're incapable of feelings period), then I'm never going to change your mind. By the same token, if it didn't affect you emotionally, you can point out every single flaw and logical inconsistency in the movie until you're blue in the face, but it's not going to change the fact that it did work on some level.

That being said, I think your description is better. You're saying the same thing I was trying to, but worded it far better.

P.S. Glad to have you both on the boards   

Folks might be interested to look up the 'natural' development theory popularized in the late 19th century which viewed childhood development as a progression from "savage" emotionalism, instinct, and pleasure to a "civilized" state of logic and restraint [these are the phrases used by early psychologists and, yes, it's pretty racist/ethnocentric where non-Western people were viewed as "childlike."]

Lizzy's mom has definitely forced her idea of adulthood onto Lizzy, whereas the movie (bumblingly) holds the position that adults can and should be both emotional and logical. 

I think the discussion, as contentious as it seemed, proved brilliantly that both teams are fully-formed mature adults, relying on both emotional and logical analysis for the film. June and Jason, who liked the film, relied on emotion when discussing its style/execution and analytical analysis for its themes and intent. Paul and Casey who didn't like it used logic to argue against its execution, but emotion in discussing its message. 

I'd have to re-watch the whole movie again to know if this is true, but as I recall there are other instances of adults who had bottled up their emotions/desires only to have them burst out in immature ways, e.g. Lizzy's fiance cheating on her, her father abandoning the family, Mickey professing his love for someone he doesn't know at all and...the whole restaurant scene. 

[GrahamS. 803]

Ok, there a LOT of posts on here and in the interest of full disclosure, I have not read read them all.

Also in the interest of full disclosure, I had not seen this movie and my first exposure was through (1) The preview, (2) Roger Ebert’s scathing review and (3) the HDTGM podcast (which was my favorite episode so far, other than Death Spa).

i waited until last week so I could forget the podcast and form an unbiased opinion. I was going to try and be fair, but based on Paul’s presentation, I went into the movie expecting to hate it and align with Team Sanity.

After I watched the movie, I listened to the episode again. Although I take issue with Jason and June’s assertion that Phoebe Cates has healed herself at the end (I think every character in the movie still needs COPIOUS amounts of psychotherapy by the time the credits roll. There is not one clearly defined “sane” person in this picture, and I say that as someone who has dealt with mental health issues on a personal level)...

I was shocked to find myself aligned with Team Fred. I have purchased a shirt and will wear it to next week’s Seattle show (if it arrives by then). I echo Jason’s statement in that I throughly expected this film to be trash and was surprised to find how much I liked it.

I won’t break down every detail because it has been talked over so much. I will say I found Paul’s defense of the mother shocking, especially because the mother basically abducts Phoebe Cates in the film’s opening moments  because she feels like she knows what’s best for her twenty-something daughter (and Paul never really talked about the  mother doing that during the episode, which in retrospect seems like a purposeful choice). That’s not what a “nice” mom would do. Phoebe Cates is not spiraling out of control at that point. I could honestly see Darren Aronofsky using the mother/daughter relationship in Drop Dead Fred as the prototype for the mother/daughter relationship in Black Swan.

The main reason i think I enjoyed this film is because it played like Black Swan meets Fight Club filtered through the dream logic of David Lynch. If Dean Stockwell had showed up while singing Roy Orbison into a lightbulb at the end of this movie, I would not have been surprised. 

Anyway, Team Fred!

[Fisheye 1]

I don't think this was mentioned anywhere. As I remember it, Drop Dead Fred contains what seems to be an homage to a scene in the Fellini Film Juliet of the Spirits. Toward the end of both films, there is a scene where the protagonist encounters her child self bound to a bed. She proceeds to unbind and free her child self. I remember both scenes as being quite moving and beautiful. This is based on decades old memories of both films, so I hope I'm not misremembering. But there ya go. A very belated omission.