Episode 233 — Space Jam LIVE!

[DrGuts1003 462]

I too was laughing at the modest house that Michael Jordan supposedly lived in originally, but then I had a thought...was that house in Chicago or Birmingham, AL?  Jordan played for the Birmingham Barons baseball team and we later see him play at a golf course in Birmingham.

Perhaps that house was not his permanent residence, but rather a second home or just a rental while he played baseball.

[TheOtherWhiteJedi 0]

Ok... so I have a few bones to pick with the episode... 

1. Jam is a highlight dunk... ESPN n other sports channels have said for the past forever... n I actually for the first time was irritated with June/Jason bout not believing Paul on what a Jam is. 
 

2. The whole “Barkley mad bout getting beat by a girl” is total nonsense. He wasn’t upset about being beaten by a girl or the movie was trying to portray women can’t beat men in sports.. he said “She was 5ft nothing” in reference to getting his shot blocked. Barkley is 6’6 and he’s an NBA player.. and getting swatted by a 5’ nothing non-NBA person is something to be upset with. 
 

3. The reason why the looney tunes went to get MJ his clothes was because he never played without his “lucky” shorts he said he played with always. 

[Cam Bert 8145]

4 hours ago, Quasar Sniffer said:

I recognize this movie is a commercial, but aren't almost all kids movies, especially animated ones? Artistic merits notwithstanding, a movie like WALL-E presents itself as a cautionary fable, warning us about the dangers of rampant consumerism, cultural complacency, and excess waste, all the while generating thousands of individual products with adorable robots, complete with Disney and Pixar branding, all of which create their own waste. Don't get me wrong, WALL-E is a beautiful film, but at least Space Jam is honest about its blatant consumerism. It's not hiding behind a cute, doughy-eyed Pixar creation. No one is telling you can go "To Infinity And Beyond," as long as you buy this $25 action figure, they're just trying to get you to buy some fucking Gatorade.

I see where you're coming from but I have to disagree a bit. The problem is more the studios latch on to something and then make it a commercial for them to make more money. I work with children and Wall-E is not something on their radar. It's a beautiful movie and I've shown it to kids and they loved it and there are Wall-E products but kids are not clamoring for those products. Most kids I work with have no idea who Wall-E is. That's not to say they then won't see the film and maybe want something with him. Movies like Wall-E, Brave, Remember Me, Moana, etc. the commercial products are a by product of a studio trying to make as much money as possible and not the driving cause of the creation of the film thus I wouldn't call them commercials. Kids I teach saw those movies and liked them, but didn't see any kid with that merchandise. I know it exists and maybe somebody got something but it was a movie first and if they can move some units then that's great.

However, you know what like 40% of the kids I teach have? Cars. Cars the first one may have been created in an sincere attempt to make some art but every sequel that followed is a commercial for kids to buy their merch. Cars is second only to Star Wars in terms of merchandise sales. You know what is number three? Toy Story. Those movies have many sequels and not because they have stories to tell but because they make money off of merchandise. Again all the Toy Story sequels have messages and were worked on to be films but the only reason there are four of them is they make money in merchandising. Again, I work with children and maybe this is a Japan thing but they know these characters as that characters. They often don't realize they are from a movie or haven't seen the movie. Like a Hello Kitty! they are just a character slapped onto a shirt that you want because you like that image. So while a lot of animated kids films are commercials I wouldn't say almost all but the ones that are stick out a bit more.

[Cam Bert 8145]

Can we talk about what a horrible business idea this whole plan is? So Danny DeVito wants to bring Michael Jordan to Moron Mountain (not a mountain by the way) where he will chain him up and kids can dunk on him at basketball. First, the aliens that go to Moron Mountain (I mean there isn't even a mountain on that planet) would have to be familiar with the game of basketball and on top of that know who Michael Jordan is. Imagine you go to a theme park and see a cricket pitch and told "Hey do you want to bowl against Sachin Tendulkar?" First question is, "what is cricket?" Okay, maybe you know the sport but even if you know of the sport the second question is "who is Sachin Tendulkar and why should I care?". All of it is meaningless and not going to pull people in unless it is something and someone they are familiar with. So let's say the people at Moron Mountain (there is no fake mountain in the park either) put up video monitors so as you wait in line to dunk on Michael you learn about the sport and why he was the greatest. Now you're over that hurdle you go through the gates to the attraction you see poor Michael chained up unable to move or play unencumbered, wouldn't you at this point feel a bit bad. Clearly it is set up for you to win and if you can beat a handicapped player where is the fun or challenge in that? So even if you decided that you want to go up against him if you know you're going to win every time and you know everybody that goes against him is going to win where is the fun or joy in doing it again or even winning? If Moron Mountain (maybe it's ironic that they are morons and thought they had a mountain) works like Disneyland in which the attractions are free with admission, this would quickly become an unpopular attraction and if you had to fee to play it like a carnival they aren't driving additional sales. Overall all not a great plan. 

[Smigg. 509]

5 hours ago, Cam Bert said:

Can we talk about what a horrible business idea this whole plan is? So Danny DeVito wants to bring Michael Jordan to Moron Mountain (not a mountain by the way) where he will chain him up and kids can dunk on him at basketball. First, the aliens that go to Moron Mountain (I mean there isn't even a mountain on that planet) would have to be familiar with the game of basketball and on top of that know who Michael Jordan is. Imagine you go to a theme park and see a cricket pitch and told "Hey do you want to bowl against Sachin Tendulkar?" First question is, "what is cricket?" Okay, maybe you know the sport but even if you know of the sport the second question is "who is Sachin Tendulkar and why should I care?". All of it is meaningless and not going to pull people in unless it is something and someone they are familiar with. So let's say the people at Moron Mountain (there is no fake mountain in the park either) put up video monitors so as you wait in line to dunk on Michael you learn about the sport and why he was the greatest. Now you're over that hurdle you go through the gates to the attraction you see poor Michael chained up unable to move or play unencumbered, wouldn't you at this point feel a bit bad. Clearly it is set up for you to win and if you can beat a handicapped player where is the fun or challenge in that? So even if you decided that you want to go up against him if you know you're going to win every time and you know everybody that goes against him is going to win where is the fun or joy in doing it again or even winning? If Moron Mountain (maybe it's ironic that they are morons and thought they had a mountain) works like Disneyland in which the attractions are free with admission, this would quickly become an unpopular attraction and if you had to fee to play it like a carnival they aren't driving additional sales. Overall all not a great plan. 

 

Now I really want to hear Paul try to pronounce Sachin Tendulkar

[DannytheWall 196]

16 hours ago, Quasar Sniffer said:

In all fairness, the sexualizing of Looney Tunes characters has a long and distinguished history. This is classy stuff, people! And for kids!

Except that, of course, cartoons were never meant "for kids" as a demographic when they were made as bumper spots between A and B reels when studios owned movie theatres up through the 40s. That stuff only came later with syndication and television and, of course, advertising directly to children. 

[DannytheWall 196]

I wondered if Moron Mountain was at some point conceived as some alien planet or universe that worked "opposite" of our world, so it would be full of evil creatures who like dangerous rides? Having Mr Swackhammer interested in corrupting the Looney Tunes to fit his park design would make for something better beyond the basic "evil businessman runs his business evilly." 

More about Magic Mountain-- it was an amunement park that's had a few owners over the years. Six Flags bought it during a period of rapid expansion, going from opening its own Six Flags Over (insert City) parks around the country and then outright buying existing parks. One of these existing parks was Great America in, yes, CHICAGO, which had a license for Looney Tunes characters to use for development of rides and entertainment. With its purchase, Six Flags now had rights for Looney Tunes, but Warner Bros. also had a reciprocal stake in ownership.

In some Game of Thrones kind of reversal of fortune, Six Flags bloated, overextended, and headed into bankrupcy. Warners could leverage its stake and buy out Six Flags entirely, gaining overship in this growing "market." Disney, after all, was synergizing like crazy, expanding its media through all kinds of merchandising, resorts, and branding.

Warners lost no time in bringing more properties into Six Flags, including its recently acquired DC superheroes. So Magic Mountain got its very own Bugs Bunny World.  The story ends with more of a whimper, however. Within just five years, Time Warner sold its theme parks division to Premeir Parks, a decidedly smaller competitor, although really the only other name in town. Premeir took over pretty much everything, including the Time Warner licenses and the Six Flags name, moving in as basically the new owner for a toy that the bigger brother didn't want to play with any more. 

That brief period within the 90s was a high point for amusement parks in general. After 9/11, travel and resort destinations took a big hit, and by the mid-2000s, many parks were closed/downsized and Six Flags even declared bankrupcy, taking several years to emerge.  

maybe the real Monstars were US all along .   

[DannytheWall 196]

At the time of Space Jam's release, I was entering college but hoping to become a full time animator. I got to do an animation test with Mr Swackhammer when applying to Warner Bros Feature Animation. Spoilers-- I didn't get the job, but somewhere there is an alternate reality where I'm buired in the credits for The Quest for Camelot. Then again, thank god for dodged bullets.    

This was the era of the Disney's Renaissance-- thanks to the trifecta of Beauty and the Beast (1991), Aladdin (1992), The Lion King (1994). Warner Bros. knew that it had what we call these days Prime IP, but had no way to capitalize on it. Part of that was due to the corporate shake-ups that took some time to stablize the studios when it became Time-Warner in 1989. It took an emphasis on fashion and merchandise as well as television (with help of Spielberg/Amblin's vision for Tiny Toon Adventures (1990)) to reinvigorate the Looney Tunes brand. And make it ripe for "corporate synergy" which was all the rage those days.     

If you want to know a more about the shaky beginnings, difficult production process, and blood sweat and tears along the way of making this film, please check out the 3-part  Oral History of Space Jam from the blog Cartoon Brew 

https://www.cartoonbrew.com/feature-film/oral-history-space-jam-part-1-launching-movie-144935.html 

[DannytheWall 196]

11 hours ago, Quasar Sniffer said:

I recognize this movie is a commercial, but aren't almost all kids movies, especially animated ones? Artistic merits notwithstanding, a movie like WALL-E presents itself as a cautionary fable, warning us about the dangers of rampant consumerism, cultural complacency, and excess waste, all the while generating thousands of individual products with adorable robots, complete with Disney and Pixar branding, all of which create their own waste. Don't get me wrong, WALL-E is a beautiful film, but at least Space Jam is honest about its blatant consumerism. It's not hiding behind a cute, doughy-eyed Pixar creation. No one is telling you can go "To Infinity And Beyond," as long as you buy this $25 action figure, they're just trying to get you to buy some fucking Gatorade.

Short answer is no, almost all kids movies, especially animated ones, are not commerical.

The longer answer would point out that an entertainment company is going to have a filmmaking studio that has completely separate employees from their merchandising division, if they have the latter at all. Yes, it's true that there's likely a corporate executive who is doing as much as possible to ensure that these two separate divisions provide opportunities for each other, but to categorically state that the merchandising one has preemminence over the creative one is grossly oversimplifying things. 

I've seen many posts like these over the years, and I often feel the urge to tilt at some windmills, repeating that we shouldn't conflate "animated moves" with "Disney" (they're not all from the same studio) Nor should we think "animated" movies are "kids movies" (they're not the same. Animation is a medium, not a genre.)  If you are interested in animated films that might not be as widely marketed as a Disney's fairy tale for kids, I'm happy to make some recommendations.     

 

[Smigg. 509]

Do you know what would have made this even the tiniest bit better.

Michael Jordan leaves to play baseball, and then the Monstars take the talent of the rest of the Chicago Bulls, dooming them to an entire season of being the Washington Generals of the NBA.  However, Jordan gets left alone, because he's a "baseball player".  From there, you actually make it personal for Jordan, because not only does he need to save the Looney Tunes, he needs to save his friends too.

On top of that, there's also the emotional aspect of having to play against his former team-mates, who have now become grotesque monsters.

[Quasar Sniffer 4174]

1 hour ago, DannytheWall said:

Except that, of course, cartoons were never meant "for kids" as a demographic when they were made as bumper spots between A and B reels when studios owned movie theatres up through the 40s. That stuff only came later with syndication and television and, of course, advertising directly to children. 

I'm well-aware of the original audience for Looney Tunes. I was being facetious.  I actually think the idea of  what makes content "kid-friendly" has been so sanitized and codified over the years. I adored Looney Tunes as a kid, even if so many of their gags riffed off of, say, Richard Wagner music or a Peter Lorre impression. We don't give kids enough credit. Everything from Looney Tunes to Labyrinth: give me more of that!

Quote

I've seen many posts like these over the years, and I often feel the urge to tilt at some windmills, repeating that we shouldn't conflate "animated moves" with "Disney" (they're not all from the same studio) Nor should we think "animated" movies are "kids movies" (they're not the same. Animation is a medium, not a genre.)  If you are interested in animated films that might not be as widely marketed as a Disney's fairy tale for kids, I'm happy to make some recommendations.   

And yeah, I'm also very aware of the difference between animated films as a medium, the Disney animated movie as a cultural phenomenon, and the marketing machine behind all of it. I myself am not a child. But I just don't think 'Space Jam' is any more of a blatant commercial than 'Frozen 2,' for example. Both are made to sell merchandise and soundtracks. I'm NOT saying the individual artists, fllmmakers, actors, and all the other workers on those films don't strive to make a product of as high a quality as possible, only that Warner Bros. is not somehow more egregious than Disney. Hell, a movie like 'Jurassic Park' was probably helped A LOT by the studio knowing of the merchandising potential, and I'm never gonna say that isn't a good movie, nor do I regret buying any dino-related toys modeled after (or because of) that movie. George Lucas was famously able to secure the merchandising rights for his little 'Star Wars' films, and the only thing that had a greater influence on my childhood than 'Star Wars' (and possibly 'Star Trek') was my parents for actually procreating.

[Quasar Sniffer 4174]

7 hours ago, Cam Bert said:

Can we talk about what a horrible business idea this whole plan is? So Danny DeVito wants to bring Michael Jordan to Moron Mountain (not a mountain by the way) where he will chain him up and kids can dunk on him at basketball. First, the aliens that go to Moron Mountain (I mean there isn't even a mountain on that planet) would have to be familiar with the game of basketball and on top of that know who Michael Jordan is. Imagine you go to a theme park and see a cricket pitch and told "Hey do you want to bowl against Sachin Tendulkar?" First question is, "what is cricket?" Okay, maybe you know the sport but even if you know of the sport the second question is "who is Sachin Tendulkar and why should I care?". All of it is meaningless and not going to pull people in unless it is something and someone they are familiar with. So let's say the people at Moron Mountain (there is no fake mountain in the park either) put up video monitors so as you wait in line to dunk on Michael you learn about the sport and why he was the greatest. Now you're over that hurdle you go through the gates to the attraction you see poor Michael chained up unable to move or play unencumbered, wouldn't you at this point feel a bit bad. Clearly it is set up for you to win and if you can beat a handicapped player where is the fun or challenge in that? So even if you decided that you want to go up against him if you know you're going to win every time and you know everybody that goes against him is going to win where is the fun or joy in doing it again or even winning? If Moron Mountain (maybe it's ironic that they are morons and thought they had a mountain) works like Disneyland in which the attractions are free with admission, this would quickly become an unpopular attraction and if you had to fee to play it like a carnival they aren't driving additional sales. Overall all not a great plan. 

I like the way you think, Mr. Cam Bert. This is another example of why this movie is, well, dumb. At least in its plot. The Moron Mountain story would have just made more sense if it was maybe a Huge Success on its home planet and they were trying to expand their empire to Earth, figuring to kidnap oddballs and celebrities for their attractions. Their ability to absorb the talent of the most talented beings from whatever planet they visited might be a part of that as well. Maybe guests, human customers, could pay exorbitant amounts to actually absorb Jordan's talent for an hour, then humiliate him in one-on-one basketball, Or maybe a train full of customers could pay to experience a little bit of it, in a sort of "Basketball The Ride" sort of experience. The Looney Tunes could maybe be a part of the Moron Mountain of Earth's Freak Show,  a humiliating fate for so celebrated a cartoon brand.

[Cam Bert 8145]

1 hour ago, Quasar Sniffer said:

I like the way you think, Mr. Cam Bert. This is another example of why this movie is, well, dumb. At least in its plot. The Moron Mountain story would have just made more sense if it was maybe a Huge Success on its home planet and they were trying to expand their empire to Earth, figuring to kidnap oddballs and celebrities for their attractions. Their ability to absorb the talent of the most talented beings from whatever planet they visited might be a part of that as well. Maybe guests, human customers, could pay exorbitant amounts to actually absorb Jordan's talent for an hour, then humiliate him in one-on-one basketball, Or maybe a train full of customers could pay to experience a little bit of it, in a sort of "Basketball The Ride" sort of experience. The Looney Tunes could maybe be a part of the Moron Mountain of Earth's Freak Show,  a humiliating fate for so celebrated a cartoon brand.

Exactly! I mean that is great technology and who wouldn't want that. I mean regardless of your passion they could have somebody for you. Hit home runs like Babe Ruth, play hockey like Wayne Gretzky, box like Mike Tyson, draw like Jack Kirby, etc. no matter your interest they have a ball their where you could absorb their abilities for an hour and just use them however you like. That's something that people would keep coming back to again and again. Heck, I don't like car racing but if I could drive a formula one car for an hour like a pro, heck yea I would.

[Smigg. 509]

I'm just surprised that Hulk Hogan, with his penchant for bullshit, hasn't come out and said "I was supposed to be in Space Jam, brother! But it was going to be called 'Space SLAM', but I was about to join the nWo, and they didn't want a bad guy as the star brotherdudejack".

[DannytheWall 196]

Too busy to listen to the episode in one sitting, so I'll post this now before I forget...

I hope they mention that the Space Jam's 1996 website is still functioning in all its HTML 1 glory 

https://www.spacejam.com/

[JoelSchlosberg 352]

It's not quite the case that every film critic hated Space Jam. At least two of them gave it a big thumbs up:

To be sure, Siskel and Ebert might be predisposed to see a movie-star quality in Michael Jordan since he's from their own Chicago, but they do mostly like the rest of the movie as well.  And they bring up a comparison to another HDTGM movie that I don't recall was ever being mentioned in the episode: Kazaam!  Which raises the question of whether Space Jam is at least better than that as a movie vehicle for a '90s superstar basketball player.  I will say that it's kind of ironic to hear Siskel decry Kazaam making Shaq a "genie" as opposed to just playing himself to be a "manufactured" role, when convolutedly "manufactured" is exactly what every single thing about the premise of Space Jam is except Michael Jordan just playing basketball like he does in real life.

[PokemonCreationist 10]

I want to give a shout out to Isaac, the guy who sang the 2nd Opinions theme song. That was so subtle, I don't think Paul, June, or Jason caught what you were doing. That song was masterfully chosen.

For those that didn't catch it, Isaac sang to the tune of "I Believe I can Fly" by R Kelly. Yes, the grammy-winning single was very apropos for parody in this episode bc the song was written for Space Jam. Its entry on the Billboard website even says so (see screen shot below). In light of recent revelations and less recent piss jokes, this was ripe for more ridicule.

And it's a shame this connection was missing from the Podcast bc it would give so much more ammunition for Jason to rip on Chicago. Kelly was born/raised on the South Side and eventually moved out to the South 'burbs (aka, "Chicago" don't @ me). So, Jason, if you want more proof that Space Jam is just Chicago being obsessed with itself, despite obvious problems, there you go.

 

[Cameron H. 23786]

While I can't speak to the physics to Tuneland, I can say that it's highly unlikely that even Michael Jordan at his peak would have survived the transitional zone between our world and the Looney Tunes subterranean kingdom. At just 0.15 kilometers (0.09 miles) beneath the Earth's surface, atmospheric pressure is strong enough to cause oxygen poisoning, or hyperoxia, which would have likely caused a pulmonary edema, in effect suffocating him as his lungs rapidly filled with liquid. What's far more likely is that what would have emerged from the WB logo would be the mangled, bloated corpse of an NBA legend with frothy, bloody sputum dripping from blue-tinged lips.

Of course, there is the possibility that he's travelling so fast that hyperoxia doesn't have time to take effect; however, since we have to assume that the atmospheric pressure in Tuneland is somehow comparable to the Earth's surface, he would still have to contend with his body going from an extremely high pressure environment to a lower or normalized one. Such a rapid change would likely shatter his ear drums, cause decompression sickness, and in a worst case scenario, cause all the liquid in his body to boil. Although, to be fair, he would already be dead before it got to blood and saliva boilage.

In any event, the extreme stresses placed on Jordan's body just getting to Tuneland would have probably killed him, and even if they didn't, he would certainly be in no condition to actually play.        

[JammerLea 2070]

CAMERON, WHY?!

On that note, while cartoon physics can apply to Jordon in Looney Tunes Land, it doesn't explain how he was able to be sucked into a golf hole in the real world! How many times should he have died in this movie??

[JoelSchlosberg 352]

Two quick observations about video game tie-ins: first, not only is Space Jam not the most incongruous movie HDTGM has done that got a video game, it's not the most incongruous movie HDTGM has done live in Chicago that got a video game:

https://s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/diqiu-production/32243e44-a877-11e2-9601-00242129f07b.jpg

No kidding, the Blues Brothers 2000 movie got a Nintendo 64 game, and the actual gameplay has the same goofy cartoon art style as the cover.

Second, the Space Jam video game wasn't even the first video game to put the Looney Tunes in a basketball contest with gameplay specifically based on NBA Jam! That would be a game called "Looney Tunes B-Ball" released a year before Space Jam:

https://www.mobygames.com/images/covers/l/231782-looney-tunes-b-ball-snes-front-cover.jpg

[Cameron H. 23786]

23 minutes ago, JammerLea said:

CAMERON, WHY?! 

[Cameron H. 23786]

18 hours ago, JammerLea said:

Just leaving a quick doodle from memory of THE BEST BUNNY before I go to bed. I'm done spamming for today I promise.

I didn’t have time to comment on this last night, but this is an awesome Buster Bunny! He and Babs were the best bunnies, and I don’t appreciate the Tiny Toons and Animaniacs erasure. 

Bring back Tiny Toons and their disturbing morality plays, damn it!

 

[Smigg. 509]

23 minutes ago, JoelSchlosberg said:

Two quick observations about video game tie-ins: first, not only is Space Jam not the most incongruous movie HDTGM has done that got a video game, it's not the most incongruous movie HDTGM has done live in Chicago that got a video game:

https://s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/diqiu-production/32243e44-a877-11e2-9601-00242129f07b.jpg

No kidding, the Blues Brothers 2000 movie got a Nintendo 64 game, and the actual gameplay has the same goofy cartoon art style as the cover.

Second, the Space Jam video game wasn't even the first video game to put the Looney Tunes in a basketball contest with gameplay specifically based on NBA Jam! That would be a game called "Looney Tunes B-Ball" released a year before Space Jam:

https://www.mobygames.com/images/covers/l/231782-looney-tunes-b-ball-snes-front-cover.jpg

The best one for me is Street Fighter: The Movie: The Video Game

This is Super Street Fighter II, the game the movie is based on
 

 

Now here's Street FIghter: The Movie: The Video Game
 

 

This raises the question.  What's the point?

Well, Capcom's Street Fighter franchise currently has over THIRTY games in it... but are somehow still on Street Fighter 5.  And secondly, this game has the added bonus of Kylie Minogue in a swimsuit, even though she was wearing camo in the movie, which I'm alright with.

[JammerLea 2070]

21 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

I didn’t have time to comment on this last nigh, but this is an awesome Buster Bunny. He and Babs were the best bunnies, and I don’t appreciate the Tiny Toons and Animaniacs erasure. 

Bring back Tiny Toons and their disturbing morality plays, damn it!

 

Thanks! And now I know I messed up his shirt sleeves. Whoops lol

What a weird episode.  I feel like I might've seen it long ago. I guess I can see why it was banned, but it also seems kinda fitting for a bunch of kids trying to sneak a bit of alcohol to be "cool". 

I was more of an Animaniacs person when that came out. I'm looking forward to the reboot of that!

[Cameron H. 23786]

5 minutes ago, JammerLea said:

Thanks! And now I know I messed up his shirt sleeves. Whoops lol

What a weird episode.  I feel like I might've seen it long ago. I guess I can see why it was banned, but it also seems kinda fitting for a bunch of kids trying to sneak a bit of alcohol to be "cool". 

I was more of an Animaniacs person when that came out. I'm looking forward to the reboot of that!

I didn’t know there was going to be a reboot!

Regarding that ep, I agree it’s weird for a kid’s show, and I don’t think it should have been banned. It’s not like it was advocating drinking, it was just kind of dark.