M*A*S*H

[grudlian. 4725]

Paul & Amy enlist for 1970's groundbreaking Robert Altman war comedy M*A*S*H! They work to separate the film from the iconic TV show, dissect a controversial scene with Sally Kellerman, and explore how this film was a precursor for 70s comedy to come. Plus: Tom Skerritt (Duke Forrest) explains how Altman made his career.

[Cameron H. 23786]

12 hours ago, grudlian. said:

Paul & Amy enlist for 1970's groundbreaking Robert Altman war comedy M*A*S*H! They work to separate the film from the iconic TV show, dissect a controversial scene with Sally Kellerman, and explore how this film was a precursor for 70s comedy to come. Plus: Tom Skerritt (Duke Forrest) explains how Altman made his career.

Gah! Putting “Yes” second threw me off! This is a total “Hell no” from me

[grudlian. 4725]

21 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

Gah! Putting “Yes” second through me off! This is a total “Hell no” from me

I considered only having no options.

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

I love a lot of Altman stuff, including Nashville which is already on the list, along with McCabe and Mrs. Miller, The Player, Short Cuts, and late-period stuff like The Company or Prairie Home Companion is also pretty solid.

I've never really felt the love for MASH. It feels to me like the bad kind of Altman, overly shambling and rootless and not as funny as it ought to be. It feels like one of those "you had to be there" things, where if I had actually lived through the Vietnam War it might have really resonated as a necessarily irreverent counterpoint to the horrors of the time. To me it just feels like yet another frat comedy that happens to be in a wartime setting, and on that level the comedy doesn't work as well as something like Animal House (which I'm not a huge fan of either, but it has more great moments than this).

And as was noted repeatedly in the podcast episode, the misogynistic treatment of Hot Lips has aged really poorly. I get it, they're trying to say she's too wedded to the establishment and that's why she's worthy of scorn (like the religious Robert Duvall character), but this is where the movie's lack of focus fails to really nail down that point and leaves too much else about it wide open for criticism.

I don't think this movie would survive the next re-vote if the AFI ever does one.

[Crummy Scrimmage 188]

Time continues to make MASH's flaws worse. I first saw it in the 90s and it didn't hold up well then either. It was interesting only to see Sutherland and Gould at a time in their careers when they had charisma to burn. 

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

Technically this is a reference to the TV show, but hey, the song is in the movie too.

 

[SeekerofJoy 11]

Re: shower scene, I think instead of hysterical, you can say traumatized. It’s a natural response to getting publicly assaulted. 

[grudlian. 4725]

I saw this once and definitely didn't revisit it for this.

I can get behind a movie with shitty characters acting shitty. What holds it for me is that the movie seems to side with them. I could maybe get behind the idea that war is so awful that this kind of behavior is the only way to handle it in a Catch 22 type way. Like Paul and Amy, I don't think the movie does this and I'm not entirely sure it's trying to. It's just drunk misogynists being drunk misogynists with no real consequences.

I'm also not a big fan of the show but it's certainly more enjoyable than the movie. I think the negative traits of the main characters are softened significantly. 

[ol' eddy wrecks 212]

58 minutes ago, grudlian. said:

I saw this once and definitely didn't revisit it for this.

I can get behind a movie with shitty characters acting shitty. What holds it for me is that the movie seems to side with them. I could maybe get behind the idea that war is so awful that this kind of behavior is the only way to handle it in a Catch 22 type way. Like Paul and Amy, I don't think the movie does this and I'm not entirely sure it's trying to. It's just drunk misogynists being drunk misogynists with no real consequences.

I'm also not a big fan of the show but it's certainly more enjoyable than the movie. I think the negative traits of the main characters are softened significantly. 

I might say more later, but along these lines of, "but what does the movie think of them?" - and something independent of it, that era sure seemed to have a number of general plot lines of, "stranger shows up in messed up environment. One where the powers in charge don't deserve what they have for one reason or another. They shake things up.  Then they leave (possibly by death*). You see the effect they've left on others." In this case, I think it was Radar mimicking the whistle at the end.

*: Usually refered to as a Jesus parable in these cases.

I'm just thinking, there was Cool Hand Luke, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and this (off the top of my head).

There's probably a few others that I'm not thinking of.  Imagining the time I can see why such an anti-establishment archetype seemed appealing to a lot of people. But I have to agree, with what's been said that whatever point it was trying to make didn't seem overly coherent - other than, "our military is fool of buffoons (particularly the leaders), so we should get out of Vietnam,"** and the comic style of people just talking over each other and so many people in a scene that would come to define Altman must have also been very radical. And if this was the only Altman film of that ilk made, that might make it worth consideration... but there are other, better Altman.

 

**: Just a timeline of other related media I can think of that's broaching this subject (main notable difference they're more, looking back at WW2). 

Catch-22 (book): 1961

dr strangelove: 1964

Slaughterhouse-V (book): 1969

Catch-22 (movie): 1970

M*A*S*H: 1970

Sl.-V (movie): 1972

[ol' eddy wrecks 212]

Slight disclaimer, I first watched this about 20 years ago, when I was about 20. My opinions of it then were fairly positive, I think. I revisited it a couple years ago while listening to another podcast also covered it. I couldn't help but wince at the main characters.

That felt close enough ago, I didn't feel the need to revisit it for this episode. 

[AlmostAGhost 2718]

This movie is icky and gross and should not be looked at with any esteem

[Cameron H. 23786]

14 minutes ago, AlmostAGhost said:

This movie is icky and gross and should not be looked at with any esteem

[AlmostAGhost 2718]

5 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

[FictionIsntReal 79]

MASH is not Altman's first film. He'd actually been directing for more than a decade. I'm not an Altman fan, the only one of his films that I've liked is McCabe & Mrs. Miller. But this is the one I disliked the most. I was aware of the show but like you guys never watched much of it. This just seems like the most dated countercultural kind of movie where the heroes just seem like jerks, and not in a fun way like the Marx brothers. I see the value in early SNL, National Lampoon and even what I've seen of Taxi, and they're all goofier because there's less of an emphasis on the characters being cool. Even Easy Rider is more self-aware and innovative. I'm also ticked that this was a big success while Mike Nichols' Catch-22 is considered a failure, even though that's far funnier and actually my favorite Nichols film.

Regarding the lack of good roles for women in that year, one of Kellerman's rival nominees for Best Supporting Actress that year was Karen Black for Five Easy Pieces, a much better version of a woman mistreated by a man.

I don't think of the protagonists as people who are sacrificing anything for a cause. They're just serving their time, avoiding authority and hoping to get out as soon as they can.

I don't know if I'd want Ghostbusters on this list, but I definitely would prefer it to MASH.

[ol' eddy wrecks 212]

9 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

MASH is not Altman's first film. He'd actually been directing for more than a decade.

I don't think anyone said that it was. Just (historically), it was his breakout film. I think the podcast just simply didn't point out how old he and for how long he had already been directing when he finally broke-out.

[ol' eddy wrecks 212]

So... Looking ahead to next week, who here has seen Sunrise: A Song of Two Humans?

I have, once, a few years ago.  I think Amy's, "it's crazy, you're going to love it!" to Paul feels a bit misleading to those who haven't. I have wondered how the main plot point is going to be received here. 

[Cameron H. 23786]

55 minutes ago, ol' eddy wrecks said:

So... Looking ahead to next week, who here has seen Sunrise: A Song of Two Humans?

I have, once, a few years ago.  I think Amy's, "it's crazy, you're going to love it!" to Paul feels a bit misleading to those who haven't. I have wondered how the main plot point is going to be received here. 

I’ve seen it. It was bonkers.  Knowing Paul, I think he’ll enjoy it.

[hahmstrung 12]

Hey everyone! Been listening to the podcast for a while and have been a lurker here. I thought I'd finally make an account!

I thought this movie was awful. Unlike the show, where Hawkeye and his buddy were more like jolly pranksters who looked after the rest of the crew when things got serious, the characters in the movie are just sadistic assholes. The movie just assumes that you already think these guys are hot shit and you're, seemingly, supposed to be rooting for them when they do horrible things.

While watching I couldn't help but think of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia: a show I love. The premise isn't so dissimilar: both are about a group of horrible people doing horrible things. The difference being that in Sunny the show clearly thinks that the main characters are buffoons while MASH (the film) thinks its characters are awesome. It's supposed to be hilarious how they sexually assault Houlihan, how Hawkeye gets Burns arrested because he's "annoyingly" religious, that one character decides to commit suicide after coming to the conclusion that he's gay. If any of this was meant to be ironic the tone of the film completely betrays it.

When Hawkeye and friend go to Japan, you're supposed to think how cool it is that they just walk into the hospital and subvert authority because hey, they were the only ones who could save that kid, right? When the officer in charge threatens to arrest them for their egregious behavior their response is to knock him out, fake him having an affair with a prostitute and blackmail him with photos of it. HILARIOUS!

I will say that I the operating room scenes were actually really good. Like Amy and Paul I liked how matter-of-fact they were. I also really liked that shot towards the end where everyone is gathered around a table chatting while the camera focuses on a dead body being transported away. That really worked for me and I think that was the tone the movie was aiming for all along, something that the show did so much better week to week.

So, yeah, big NO for me as to whether this should be on the AFI list or not. This may have been the least enjoyable film yet for me.

[AlmostAGhost 2718]

3 hours ago, ol' eddy wrecks said:

So... Looking ahead to next week, who here has seen Sunrise: A Song of Two Humans?

I have, once, a few years ago.  I think Amy's, "it's crazy, you're going to love it!" to Paul feels a bit misleading to those who haven't. I have wondered how the main plot point is going to be received here. 

Yea I've seen it too, I watched right before I knew Unspooled existed and I was starting to go through old classics on my own.

I look forward to rewatching it 

[grudlian. 4725]

4 hours ago, ol' eddy wrecks said:

So... Looking ahead to next week, who here has seen Sunrise: A Song of Two Humans?

I have, once, a few years ago.  I think Amy's, "it's crazy, you're going to love it!" to Paul feels a bit misleading to those who haven't. I have wondered how the main plot point is going to be received here. 

It's been a very long time and it looks like I'd forgotten most of it as I didn't remember it being crazy at all. I would have said it was all about a couple reconciling at the fair in the city. The wikipedia synopsis proves me wrong on that. I might have to rewatch it for the podcast.

[ol' eddy wrecks 212]

48 minutes ago, grudlian. said:

It's been a very long time and it looks like I'd forgotten most of it as I didn't remember it being crazy at all. I would have said it was all about a couple reconciling at the fair in the city. The wikipedia synopsis proves me wrong on that. I might have to rewatch it for the podcast.

That's how I mostly remember it as well (from just a few years ago). Skimming most of the synopsis, it's still, "yeah, I mostly remember that part."

I think the part that is crazy is when you say/transcribe (or even just watch it for the first time) what they need to reconcile over.

Which I think is kind of misleading - unless I'm just not remembering something else about this movie (which some of the other responses makes me wonder if I am).

[GrahamS. 803]

I haven’t seen M.A.S.H. In years. I did see it several times in the eighties on TV. I grew up in a home that didn’t have cable until around 86 (and never had HBO until I started paying for it in high school). I think it was one of the “uncut” films that would play on one of the local independent stations (basically, it was the only alternative to the big three networks and PBS). I watched this film, The French Connection, Animal House and other films that were allowed to air in versions that would be highly edited if they were put on the regular networks. 

It was a film that made me interested in Altman simply because It was very similar in feeling to Animal house, Caddyshack, and SNL, all of which I was a huge fan of. As Paul and Amy pointed out, the guys in M.A.S.H. swore and did naughty shit just like those movies. What can I say, I was twelve and the Roger Ebert book I owned said it was a classic (it also said the same about Animal House). 

I have never had the urge to revisit it. It seemed like it would be dated because of the same reasons Paul and Amy discussed. At least it got me to watch other Altman movies. Also it was more fun to watch than Platoon (which I also watched on video in the 80s. I watched A LOT of inappropriate stuff in the 80s. I watched Fatal Attraction. I watched Blue Velvet. Among other things).

Sidenote: I had the exact same “not Diff’rent Strokes” reaction to the show that Paul described. I still have not watched the show.

Also, I’m a 50/50 split on Prarie Home Companion. The show was constantly on during my childhood. Guy Noire, Private Eye was kinda funny. Garrison’s singing—and the musical acts he had on—was water torture. The movie itself was blah (which actually makes it an accurate representation of the show).
 

 

[Kryztov 0]

For all it's flaws I still love this movie. I love the TV show too. I guess I'm all in on MASH.