Episode 128.5 - Minisode 128.5

[EllenM 943]

I saw the movie, and it felt to me that there was about 15 minutes of story stretched out into 2 hours. It was a technically well-made film of course, but I was totally bored throughout. I don't specifically remember if the songs added a lot to the story, but my problem with a lot of the recent film musicals I've seen is that they do not. Things happen, and there's a 10 minute number about the thing that just happened. Wash, rinse, repeat. Seems to happen a lot in ones where they're reappropriating classic songs and just riding that gimmick into the ground.

 

I have a problem with this assessment, mainly because I feel you don't substantively give reasons for your analysis. I follow the Judge John Hodgman rule that "People like what they like and don't like what they don't like" but I think you're missing the point of this musical.

 

In Roxy Hart, we see Roxy's psychological state and her delusional relationship with fame. In Cell Block Tango, we learned about Catherine Zeta-Jones' case, her marriage and her relationship with her sister. In Richard's Gere tap dance courtroom scene, we see how hard he working that "razzle dazzle" (another solid song).

 

Also, Chicago doesn't appropriate any classic songs from the era, they are all originals.

 

I'm curious as to what musicals you're referring to that appropriate classic songs because the only ones I'm thinking of are Rock of Ages and Pennies from Heaven. I think you're conflating problems you have with modern musicals, which again I'm not sure to what you're referring, with Chicago.

[BlueRandy 0]

http://veehd.com/video/3632187_The-Apple

[Cameron H. 23786]

"But I'm finding that the earwolf forums kind of suck"

 

Yeah, that's weird to me. I have no trouble following a conversation on here, but then again, I'm here frequently enough that it's second nature. Maybe if I was exposed to other avenues online I'd feel the same way as Paul, but this place suits me down to the ground.

 

Also, I don't really have, nor do I plan on establishing, an online presence other than here, so maybe these forums are like pair of well-worn pajamas for me. I mean, I guess I still have an account over at WolfPop, which I primarily used to comment on The Sylvester Stallone Podcast, but I haven't been over there in forever. Now that's a forum set up I really couldn't get behind. It was really buggy. You couldn't edit (something I find I have to do--a lot) and I could never figure out how to attach a video or gif (the fucking HORROR!)

 

For comparisons sake, I just went over to Reddit, and everyone seems cool, but I found the whole design makes me want to scratch my eyes out.

 

Oh well, to each their own. I guess I have to accept that my tastes don't always align with our wonderful hosts. For instance, I started watching Gilmore Girls, and I do not get Jason's affection for that AT ALL! Although, I am still watching it...albeit with so much hate in my heart it ought to be a sin.

 

And speaking of sin...The Apple, am I alone in thinking it's not that crazy? Aside from the Mr. Topps thing at the end, which from I understand from iMDB was actually set up in a deleted scene, I found it pretty straight forward and kind of boring. I guess there's something to be said about the visuals, but the movie is highly stylized, so they didn't bother me all that much. As far as the plot, it's a very A to B type story. I guess I just prefer it when the plot of the movie is crazy other than just the way it looks...Or perhaps--and more likely--I am so inured to HDTGM movies at this point, nothing really phases me.

 

Anyway, I plan on re-watching it again with Rifftrax, which I already own, but I wanted to watch it on Prime to see if I could pick out anything for myself. To me, it's just a bad movie/musical with nothing too stand out about it.

[ChunkStyle 1160]

 

And speaking of sin...The Apple, am I alone in thinking it's not that crazy? Aside from the Mr. Topps thing at the end, which from I understand from iMDB was actually set up in a deleted scene, I found it pretty straight forward and kind of boring. I guess there's something to be said about the visuals, but the movie is highly stylized, so they didn't bother me all that much. As far as the plot, it's a very A to B type story. I guess I just prefer it when the plot of the movie is crazy other than just the way it looks...Or perhaps--and more likely--I am so inured to HDTGM movies at this point, nothing really phases me.

 

 

I am coming down on the side of crazy. Trying to put the setting in context it would be like if Suge Knight was the shadow power behind a totalitarian government controlling the country? And he made us pledge allegiance to Gin and Juice? Not pledge with the song. To the song.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

 

I have a problem with this assessment, mainly because I feel you don't substantively give reasons for your analysis. I follow the Judge John Hodgman rule that "People like what they like and don't like what they don't like" but I think you're missing the point of this musical.

 

In Roxy Hart, we see Roxy's psychological state and her delusional relationship with fame. In Cell Block Tango, we learned about Catherine Zeta-Jones' case, her marriage and her relationship with her sister. In Richard's Gere tap dance courtroom scene, we see how hard he working that "razzle dazzle" (another solid song).

 

Also, Chicago doesn't appropriate any classic songs from the era, they are all originals.

 

I'm curious as to what musicals you're referring to that appropriate classic songs because the only ones I'm thinking of are Rock of Ages and Pennies from Heaven. I think you're conflating problems you have with modern musicals, which again I'm not sure to what you're referring, with Chicago.

I couldn't agree more with everything you've said here. I think there may be just a couple of songs that don't necessarily add anything to the plot but are great ways to see how they're performers first and foremost. Like "And All That Jazz" doesn't itself move the plot along but we see on screen how much Roxy longs to perform on stage while watching Velma and that's important to the plot and to her character development.

 

It's, in my humble opinion, not the best musical that's ever been done (and probably not really deserving of the best picture win at the Oscars that year) but it's definitely not the worst either. I saw it in theaters when I was 13 and just didn't like it at all but as I got older and started actually being in musical theater it started to grow on me and I really have an appreciation for it now.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

I couldn't agree more with everything you've said here. I think there may be just a couple of songs that don't necessarily add anything to the plot but are great ways to see how they're performers first and foremost. Like "And All That Jazz" doesn't itself move the plot along but we see on screen how much Roxy longs to perform on stage while watching Velma and that's important to the plot and to her character development.

 

It's, in my humble opinion, not the best musical that's ever been done (and probably not really deserving of the best picture win at the Oscars that year) but it's definitely not the worst either. I saw it in theaters when I was 13 and just didn't like it at all but as I got older and started actually being in musical theater it started to grow on me and I really have an appreciation for it now.

 

Since Chicago first came out in 1975 and was a flop I'd say America mirrored your journey with the show.

 

As for the show itself, I think the movie isn't the best representation. There is a major plot point in the stage show that was taken out of the movie. I think that greatly minimizes the movie's impact. Instead of making a larger point about how Roxie and Velma's stories are universal it came back to focusing on the actresses.

 

 

In the stage show Mary Sunshine is credited as M. Johnson or some such, never showing the actor's first name. During the show Billy Flynn tells Roxie "Nothing is what it seems", walks over to Mary Sunshine and reveals she's a man!

 

[FisterRoboto 7499]

 

Yeah, that's weird to me. I have no trouble following a conversation on here, but then again, I'm here frequently enough that it's second nature. Maybe if I was exposed to other avenues online I'd feel the same way as Paul, but this place suits me down to the ground.

 

For comparisons sake, I just went over to Reddit, and everyone seems cool, but I found the whole design makes me want to scratch my eyes out.

I like the boards here, too. It's a standard forum layout.

 

I think some people prefer reddit because it groups conversations, but my problem with that is that it default sorts by popularity, so the more upvotes your comment has, the higher it appears, and I feel like it becomes a series of comments geared just to get upvotes rather than actual conversations. There are other reasons I'm not a huge reddit fan, but I'll keep my curmudgeonly attitude to myself.

[Lando 2019]

I like the boards here, too. It's a standard forum layout.

 

I think some people prefer reddit because it groups conversations, but my problem with that is that it default sorts by popularity, so the more upvotes your comment has, the higher it appears, and I feel like it becomes a series of comments geared just to get upvotes rather than actual conversations. There are other reasons I'm not a huge reddit fan, but I'll keep my curmudgeonly attitude to myself.

 

I think that this is more true for the more popular subreddits than the less popular.

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

I am coming down on the side of crazy. Trying to put the setting in context it would be like if Suge Knight was the shadow power behind a totalitarian government controlling the country? And he made us pledge allegiance to Gin and Juice? Not pledge with the song. To the song.

 

But, but, but...what if the song is, like, really catchy?

 

I do hear what you're saying though...but if you're conceit is "let's do a disco musical with Judeo-Christian overtones" I think their take is just as valid as say, Godspell, Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat, or Jesus Christ Superstar. Maybe even moreso, as The Apple has the added benefit of writing in a commentary about commercialism, conformity, and fad culture. Although, maybe that's in those musicals as well, it's been years since I've seen either Godspell or JCS, and I've never seen JatATD, so maybe those greater points are there and I'm just speaking out of my ass.

 

And I do want to stress, I did not like The Apple, nor do I think it is in the same solar system as those other musicals in terms of quality. I'm just saying, to me, plot-wise, the premise doesn't seem much crazier than these or a number of other musicals I've seen.

 

I like the boards here, too. It's a standard forum layout.

 

I think some people prefer reddit because it groups conversations, but my problem with that is that it default sorts by popularity, so the more upvotes your comment has, the higher it appears, and I feel like it becomes a series of comments geared just to get upvotes rather than actual conversations. There are other reasons I'm not a huge reddit fan, but I'll keep my curmudgeonly attitude to myself.

 

Wow, I never knew that about Reddit. That does seem to be a piss poor way of having a meaningful conversation. I like this setup just because I feel like people are able to properly express themselves. Sometimes what one says is received warmly and sometimes it's not, but at least it doesn't foster an environment of, "What is the funniest thing I can say, right now?" or "What can I do so people will notice me?"

 

I always just assumed that Reddit was just a place where people could shout out Tourette's-like whatever silly thing is on their mind with no concern as to whether or not anyone is actually (honestly) engaging with them. It's the same reason I'm not on Facebook or Twitter. I get them as a tool for marketing and keeping in touch with friends and family, but other than that, I see them just as a soapbox to air out whatever inane thing that happens to be on a person's mind. I wouldn't even know what to do with a Twitter account if I had one. I harbor no illusions that people give a crap about anything I have to say, so I'm not going to foist myself on an uncaring populace.

 

And, yes, this is me being an old curmudgeon

 

[Lando 2019]

I always just assumed that Reddit was just a place where people could shout out Tourette's-like whatever is thing is on their mind with no concern as to whether or not anyone is actually (honestly) engaging with them. It's the same reason I'm not on Facebook or Twitter. I get them as a tool for marketing and keeping in touch with friend's and family, but other than that, I see them just as a soapbox to air out whatever inane thing that happens to be on a person's mind. I wouldn't even know what to do with a Twitter account if I had one. I harbor no illusions that people give a crap about anything I have to say, so I'm not going to foist myself on an uncaring populace.

 

Facebook is really bad when it comes to politics. A lot of people seem to think that it's somehow okay to broadcast out things to people that they are tangentially connected that they would avoid in polite face-to-face conversation. I think the worst part is that most people who are out there posting political stuff on Facebook aren't looking to have a meaningful conversation with everyone, but talk at them and have a one-sided conversation. At this point I mostly maintain a Facebook account to know when to wish people a happy birthday and to try to ask stupid questions on the HDTGM Facebook page.

 

Twitter is the worst IMO. It's so shouty. It's even more impossible to have meaningful conversations or say anything remotely nuanced in 140 characters. I often say that when polarizing things happen, Facebook is like 1,000 sticks beating 1,000 horses 1,000 days after they have died. Twitter is 1,000,000 sticks beating 1,000,000 horses 1,000,000 days after they have died.

 

I feel like at least it's generally pretty easy to avoid a lot of the negative stuff on reddit if you stick to r/funny, r/tifu, r/earthporn, etc. and smaller niche subreddits.

[ChunkStyle 1160]

 

But, but, but...what if the song is, like, really catchy?

 

I do hear what you're saying though...but if you're conceit is "let's do a disco musical with Judeo-Christian overtones" I think their take is just as valid as say, Godspell, Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat, or Jesus Christ Superstar. Maybe even moreso, as they have the added benefit of writing in a commentary about commercialism, conformity, and fad culture. Although, maybe that's in those musicals as well, it's been years since I've seen either Godspell or JCS, and I've never seen JatATD, so maybe those greater points are there and I'm just speaking out of my ass.

 

And I do want to stress, I did not like The Apple, nor do I think it is in the same solar system as those other musicals in terms of quality. I'm just saying, to me, plot-wise, the premise doesn't seem much crazier than these or a number of other musicals I've seen.

 

 

I'm not a musicals guy so maybe that is why I was more impressed with the insanity. Within genre maybe it is the picture of normality.

[RyanSz 3140]

I might need you to explain to me why you think Chicago was the worst musical, plot wise, lol

I don't know if I can really explain it because it just didn't sit well with me. I get the whole thing of fame through crime and trying to remain on top, but it does come off as stretched out and replayed throughout the course of the movie with numerous femme fatales. Movies like Grease and Rocky Horror Picture Show are movies that incorporate the music into what could be a standalone movie, not the other way around where a movie is stapled to music. I do appreciate musicals with original music rather than appropriating a bunch of different songs that have no place in that time, fuck you Moulin Rouge for your bunch of horseshit. I know my answer probably won't sate anyone wanting to know, but it's just one of those movies I can't explain my disdain in clear words.

[PlanBFromOuterSpace 3138]

 

I have a problem with this assessment, mainly because I feel you don't substantively give reasons for your analysis. I follow the Judge John Hodgman rule that "People like what they like and don't like what they don't like" but I think you're missing the point of this musical.

 

In Roxy Hart, we see Roxy's psychological state and her delusional relationship with fame. In Cell Block Tango, we learned about Catherine Zeta-Jones' case, her marriage and her relationship with her sister. In Richard's Gere tap dance courtroom scene, we see how hard he working that "razzle dazzle" (another solid song).

 

Also, Chicago doesn't appropriate any classic songs from the era, they are all originals.

 

I'm curious as to what musicals you're referring to that appropriate classic songs because the only ones I'm thinking of are Rock of Ages and Pennies from Heaven. I think you're conflating problems you have with modern musicals, which again I'm not sure to what you're referring, with Chicago.

Sorry if there was any confusion, but I didn't mean to make it sound like "Chicago" was one of the ones that re-used popular tunes. Anyway, I didn't want to see "Chicago" in the first place, as I got hauled to it by my girlfriend at the time, which probably didn't help the experience, and then it totally bored me on top of that. Like I said, for what it was, I can admire that it was very well-made, but as I mentioned, there just wasn't enough story there.

 

It wasn't embarrassing to watch at least, which I can't say about a lot of other (mostly) post-"Chicago" film musicals that I've seen at least big enough chunks of to know I couldn't make it through the rest. "Rent" makes me cringe whenever I come across it. "Rock of Ages" is a huge offender, as well as "Across the Universe", in the category of musicals that seem to base their gimmick around you already knowing the songs, yet they'll still stop every so often to say "GET IT?!?!". To bring it around to the next HDTGM film, they're like Cannon, who don't seem to understand why the thing they have in their hands is so popular and just run the wrong way with it. Man, the Beatles sure are great, but their music would be so much better if we just let a bunch of actors jack off with their entire catalog to incredibly mixed results, you know? And I sure like 80's rock music, but I wish that someone would cut the balls off of it and take everything away from the songs that make them what they are.

 

*Sigh* Maybe I'm just upset that no one's taken me up on my idea of a musical version of Thomas Hardy's "Jude The Obscure" set in the 1990s and featuring the music of Weezer and Everclear...

[PlanBFromOuterSpace 3138]

I don't know if I can really explain it because it just didn't sit well with me. I get the whole thing of fame through crime and trying to remain on top, but it does come off as stretched out and replayed throughout the course of the movie with numerous femme fatales. Movies like Grease and Rocky Horror Picture Show are movies that incorporate the music into what could be a standalone movie, not the other way around where a movie is stapled to music. I do appreciate musicals with original music rather than appropriating a bunch of different songs that have no place in that time, fuck you Moulin Rouge for your bunch of horseshit. I know my answer probably won't sate anyone wanting to know, but it's just one of those movies I can't explain my disdain in clear words.

I think that it being so heavily hyped and overrated didn't help my perception of it when I got around to seeing it. As I mentioned before, it was exceptional on a technical level and very well made for what it was, but no way was it something that should have been winning "Best Picture" left and right.

[RyanSz 3140]

Oh and that whole Renee Zellwegger puppet scene was fuckballs insane and nightmare inducing.

[BertramCooper 122]

Oh man, I was so bummed to discover that Mr. Boogalow was Kronsteen in From Russia With Love.

[Cameron H. 23786]

Oh and that whole Renee Zellwegger puppet scene was fuckballs insane and nightmare inducing.

 

I'm starting to think I need to see Chicago...

[firsttimecallerlongtimelistenr 3590]

[taylor anne photo 11311]

 

I'm starting to think I need to see Chicago...

I would recommend it lol

[taylor anne photo 11311]

I don't know if I can really explain it because it just didn't sit well with me. I get the whole thing of fame through crime and trying to remain on top, but it does come off as stretched out and replayed throughout the course of the movie with numerous femme fatales. Movies like Grease and Rocky Horror Picture Show are movies that incorporate the music into what could be a standalone movie, not the other way around where a movie is stapled to music. I do appreciate musicals with original music rather than appropriating a bunch of different songs that have no place in that time, fuck you Moulin Rouge for your bunch of horseshit. I know my answer probably won't sate anyone wanting to know, but it's just one of those movies I can't explain my disdain in clear words.

See I think that if you took out the music you could have a stand alone movie with that plot. The music just really adds the performer quality to their characters. And in my opinion (upon rewatching) the replaying of the femme fatales is almost the point. Roxy was never going to be in the spotlight for long and she was going to be pushed aside for the next femme fatale that came along just as she had pushed aside Velma and the others before her.

 

But I still have to agree that it was not the best picture that year. I even think that without having seen Gangs of New York, The Pianist, or The Hours.

 

Musicals are all so polarizing which makes this discussion sooo interesting to me. I see y'all say stuff against Moulin Rouge and Across the Universe but shit I love those and am very unapologetic about it. But with AtU I know I'm rather in the minority about my love for it lol.

 

Just to throw in a musical that's not currently a movie right now that I'm obsessed with - is anyone listening (or has anyone seen) Hamilton!? Seriously y'all I am o b s e s s e d!!!

[Cameron H. 23786]

Just to throw in a musical that's not currently a movie right now that I'm obsessed with - is anyone listening (or has anyone seen) Hamilton!? Seriously y'all I am o b s e s s e d!!!

 

Oh, fuck! Screw Chicago. Taylor Anne, where have you been?? Check out my location!!!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWdBOsk8D7A

 

I have been listening to it non-stop for about three weeks! I also posted "Yorktown" on the mini just ahead of Streets of Fire.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

 

Oh, fuck! Screw Chicago. Taylor Anne, where have you been?? Check out my location!!!

 

I have been listening to it non-stop for about three weeks!

FUCK! WHY DON'T I EVER ACTUALLY LOOK AT LOCATIONS!?

 

I was having a difficult time picking a favorite but then I was like "NOPE IT'S BURN!" and then I listen to that one alone 50 times on repeat before I go through the entire soundtrack again. I am just so in love with the Schuyler sisters!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CFOuGqBSEE

 

Lin-Manuel must be a witch because I haven't been this captivated by a musical in yeeaaarrrsss

[Cameron H. 23786]

FUCK! WHY DON'T I EVER ACTUALLY LOOK AT LOCATIONS!?

 

I was having a difficult time picking a favorite but then I was like "NOPE IT'S BURN!" and then I listen to that one alone 50 times on repeat before I go through the entire soundtrack again. I am just so in love with the Schuyler sisters!

 

Lin-Manuel must be a witch because I haven't been this captivated by a musical in yeeaaarrrsss

 

I one hundred percent agree! I'm not going to lie, I was driving when I was listening to the songs "Blow Us All Away," Stay Alive (Reprise)," and "It's Quiet Uptown" and straight up started bawling. lol I assume that has a lot to do with me being a father, but damn if that shit didn't hurt. And then, when it goes into "The Election of 1800" and they sing, "It might be nice, to have Hamilton on your side," I did a full-on fucking fist pump!

 

God, it's so fucking awesome!

 

Also, this song...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j9Gk8kfKt4

 

Also, also, in regard to "Burn," I love the runner of her being a part of his narrative and how that's resolved at the end.

[FisterRoboto 7499]

See I think that if you took out the music you could have a stand alone movie with that plot. The music just really adds the performer quality to their characters. And in my opinion (upon rewatching) the replaying of the femme fatales is almost the point. Roxy was never going to be in the spotlight for long and she was going to be pushed aside for the next femme fatale that came along just as she had pushed aside Velma and the others before her.

 

But I still have to agree that it was not the best picture that year. I even think that without having seen Gangs of New York, The Pianist, or The Hours.

 

Musicals are all so polarizing which makes this discussion sooo interesting to me. I see y'all say stuff against Moulin Rouge and Across the Universe but shit I love those and am very unapologetic about it. But with AtU I know I'm rather in the minority about my love for it lol.

 

Just to throw in a musical that's not currently a movie right now that I'm obsessed with - is anyone listening (or has anyone seen) Hamilton!? Seriously y'all I am o b s e s s e d!!!

I think musicals are something you either love or hate. I feel like I might have had this convo with someone in another thread not too long ago because they said that musicals just don't make sense to them.

 

My parents love musicals, and I grew up watching them. Most of the Disney movies from my childhood were musicals, and there's this awesome theater in Fort Worth called Casa Manana that my parents used to take my sister and me to really frequently. When I was a kid, it still had a "theater-in-the-round" setup, so the audience sat around the stage, and the cast would enter through the aisles, and scenes would take place partly in the audience (they would often move off stage to do scenes so the crew could change sets on the stage). It was totally immersive and awesome, and they did musicals all summer.

 

So, I never questioned the musical format until I was an adult. I don't understand the concept behind "if you stripped the music out of it" because the music is a way of telling story. Moulin Rouge is one of those movies that uses pop songs to do this very well (and Baz Luhrmann's gimmick has always been using non-traditional narrative elements). And I think it's a great musical for it - although I haven't seen it in about 10 years, so I don't know how well it holds up.

 

Side note: I haven't seen Chicago because it just really didn't interest me, so it's just always been on my "yeah maybe one day" list.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

 

I one hundred percent agree! I'm not going to lie, I was driving when I was listening to the songs "Blow Us All Away," Stay Alive (Reprise)," and "It's Quiet Uptown" and straight up started bawling. lol I assume that has a lot to do with me being a father, but damn if that shit didn't hurt. And then, when it goes into "The Election of 1800" and they sing, "It might be nice, to have Hamilton on your side," I did a full-on fucking fist pump!

 

God, it's so fucking awesome!

 

Also, also, in regard to "Burn," I love the runner of her being a part of his narrative and how that's resolved at the end.

The way that Daveed sings as Jefferson with that air of narcissism is soooo fucking brilliant and just the way he goes "whaaaaat" when Madison recommends reaching out to Hamilton gets me every god damn time! Like the more I find out about Jefferson the more I despise him but Daveed makes me want to love him because he's so good at playing him!

 

Also the cabinet battles are amazing and how I now picture congress communicating with each other.

 

So, I never questioned the musical format until I was an adult. I don't understand the concept behind "if you stripped the music out of it" because the music is a way of telling story. Moulin Rouge is one of those movies that uses pop songs to do this very well (and Baz Luhrmann's gimmick has always been using non-traditional narrative elements). And I think it's a great musical for it - although I haven't seen it in about 10 years, so I don't know how well it holds up.

 

Side note: I haven't seen Chicago because it just really didn't interest me, so it's just always been on my "yeah maybe one day" list.

Exactly! Honestly I mentioned being able to take Chicago's songs out purely for the argument that the plot couldn't survive without them, which I disagree with. But as I mentioned earlier those songs in particular may not all exactly tell the story but still we visually see that story moving along while the song is happening. They're all important.

 

I feel the same about Moulin Rouge. The story absolutely does not rely on being stapled to the pop songs that Baz chooses but they add another element in the story telling to make it complete. Gosh it's been a long time since I've seen it too but I still listen to the soundtrack so I would certainly hope that it still holds up.