Episode 178.5 - Minisode 178.5

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

You mean people don’t want all mystery stripped away?

 

I 100% agree with you. The stories that seem to stick are the ones that introduce you to a new universe, but don’t necessarily fill in all the gaps. When the Harry Potter books were coming out, my favorite part was the speculation between books.

 

Of course the down side to all of this is that is you end up writing the “perfect” story in your head. Consequently, it took me awhile to accept Deathly Hallows for what it was. I’m sure that’s what’s happening with TLJ. I refuse to believe it’s as good or bad as everyone is saying. I think that with time and distance people will end up falling somewhere in the middle.

 

I suspect that over time people will come to see this as the best of the post-Lucas movies (though that also depends on what else is made after this), and that's based on the critical reaction being much more positive than the divided "angry fan" reaction. Usually that bodes well for the future. It is probably not the best Star Wars movie overall; the OT has yet to be dethroned, and probably will never be.

 

That said, I think you are right that the big issue is the difference between the actual movie and the "perfect" one that people had written in their heads.

[tomspanks 9039]

What I find fascinating (as someone who won't be seeing the movie until it's streaming), is that no one seems to be allowed to have an apathetic feeling regarding The Last Jedi. Either you love it (and don't recognize "Art" when they see it) or they hate it (and everyone else is being blind its many significant flaws). I feel like, once I've seen it, I feel much the way I felt when I first say TFA - that is to say, disappointed at first, but grow to like it for what it is. I just think it's weird that there's (apparently) no middle ground.

 

Well, my husband didn't exactly love it, but I'm not mad.

 

 

 

It also makes me wonder if we would have seen this same freakout for The Empire Strikes Back or The Phantom Menace or even The Star Wars Holiday Special if social media had existed in those days. Is it something about The Last Jedi specifically or just modern Internet outrage culture?

 

Do...people hate Empire Strikes Back?

[Cameron H. 23786]

Do...people hate Empire Strikes Back?

 

I think he means the “No, I am your father” bit. It’s so ingrained in pop culture that it’s become a cliche, but I’m sure it was divisive at the time. Was he lying? If he’s telling the truth, why was Obi-Wan lying? I like it. I hate it. Given the ability to connect and argue with people over social media, I think that scene might have had the potential to “break the Internet.”

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

I think he means the “No, I am your father” bit. It’s so ingrained in pop culture that it’s become a cliche, but I’m sure it was divisive at the time. Was he lying? If he’s telling the truth, why was Obi-Wan lying? I like it. I hate it. Given the ability to connect and argue with people over social media, I think that scene might have had the potential to “break the Internet.”

 

Precisely. People love Empire now, but given some of the upheaval it did to the Star Wars universe at the time, I wouldn't have been surprised to see an extremely split reaction among fans. It's also tonally and structurally very different from A New Hope and leaves a lot unresolved at the end. Apply that to the current Twitter environment and you might see something very similar to the current Last Jedi battles.

[grudlian. 4725]

If it makes you feel better my mom said she didn't hate it but she definitely didn't like it either. She can only pinpoint two specific moments that she herself didn't like but she said overall she was just bored by the whole thing. I on the other hand can pinpoint things I didn't like but ultimately I still fall in the really liking it category.

I feel kind of similar to your mom about it. I can point out some stuff I didn't like (and I'll second firsttimecallerlongtimelistnr that the humor felt way more forced than TFA

and dear god I hated the "Yes, I'm holding for the general" phone call bit at the beginning

). I can name way more things that I appreciate about it. But I'm still very whatever about the whole movie to be honest. If people didn't bring up Star Wars everywhere, I wouldn't be thinking about it at all.

 

I'd liken my reaction to seeing some big important classic movie that doesn't age well. I get it. I see why it was important, but ehhhhh. I'm sure I'll appreciate it more on a rewatch.

Truth be told: I think I’m alread starting to feel Star Wars fatigue

That's pretty rough since you haven't even seen the newest one.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

(and I'll second firsttimecallerlongtimelistnr that the humor felt way more forced than TFA

and dear god I hated the "Yes, I'm holding for the general" phone call bit at the beginning

).

Maaan I was really hoping that wasn't gonna be the part you mentioned cause I thought that was hilarious lol!

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

Maaan I was really hoping that wasn't gonna be the part you mentioned cause I thought that was hilarious lol!

 

Yeah, I thought that was perfect for putting you right in the space where this movie wanted to live. Obviously not everyone could get on board.

[Cameron H. 23786]

.

 

That's pretty rough since you haven't even seen the newest one.

 

I think it's more how it feels endless now. It used to be special. You had to wait more than a decade for a new Trilogy (and three years between installments). I think the proliferation of movies has diluted the brand. Like Taylor said, I think the announcement of the new Rian Johnson trilogy is what broke me. It's not that I don't think future movies won't be good, it's more that they've lost their shine. I also fear for anyone trying to make a Sci-fi movie that's *not* a Star Wars tie-in. We've been given the keys to the candy shop...and we're going to get sick.

[grudlian. 4725]

 

Yeah, I thought that was perfect for putting you right in the space where this movie wanted to live. Obviously not everyone could get on board.

I disagree because I feel the movie, for the most part tried to be very weighty and serious. It felt, to me, that Rian Johnson would occasionally go "This has been serious for too many minutes. Better throw in a joke." It switched gears between dark brooding and humor very abruptly. Except Finn who always felt natural with his humor and can do no wrong.

 

I don't know. Maybe I'm being a bit hard on it. I definitely get why people love the movie way way way more than the nerds who are angry over it not being exactly what they dreamed it to be.

 

EDIT: This is making feel like a real nerd rage dork over this and I swear I'm mostly positive about The Last Jedi.

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

I disagree because I feel the movie, for the most part tried to be very weighty and serious. It felt, to me, that Rian Johnson would occasionally go "This has been serious for too many minutes. Better throw in a joke." It switched gears between dark brooding and humor very abruptly. Except Finn who always felt natural with his humor and can do no wrong.

 

I would argue that the original trilogy are a lot like this. The jokes were more old-fashioned vaudeville than modern snark but they definitely swung back and forth between comedy and weighty drama.

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

I think it's more how it feels endless now. It use to be special. You had to wait more than a decade for a new Trilogy (and three years between installments). I think the proliferation of movies has diluted the brand. Like Taylor said, I think the announcement of the new Rian Johnson trilogy is what broke me. It's not that I don't think future movies won't be good, it's more that they've lost their shine. I also fear for anyone trying to make a Sci-fi movie that's *not* a Star Wars tie-in. We've been given the keys to the candy shop...and we're going to get sick.

 

I understand this problem, but for me the positive result of the proliferation of Star Wars is that it helps take the piss out of it. Everyone's hopes and dreams don't have to be piled on to one movie every three years. Different filmmakers can take a crack at telling a story within the universe, and you can take the ones you like and leave the ones you don't. They are just movies.

 

But then again, that's always how I viewed Star Wars: just movies. A couple of them are great. Some are good. Some are bad. I never got super-nerdy about the Star Wars "brand" or cared about any of the expanded universe stuff.

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

I understand this problem, but for me the positive result of the proliferation of Star Wars is that it helps take the piss out of it. Everyone's hopes and dreams don't have to be piled on to one movie every three years. Different filmmakers can take a crack at telling a story within the universe, and you can take the ones you like and leave the ones you don't. They are just movies.

 

But then again, that's always how I viewed Star Wars: just movies. A couple of them are great. Some are good. Some are bad. I never got super-nerdy about the Star Wars "brand" or cared about any of the expanded universe stuff.

 

Oh, trust me. I'm with you. For me, I find them fun and I enjoy them, but they're not necessarily "good" movies - they never were. But whereas you see promise for good and bad (which of course there will be), I'm just getting bored of it entirely. I'd rather see more movies (as crappy as they are) like Valerian and Jupiter Ascending get made than March of the Porgs or Hard Ticket to Hoth.

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

Oh, trust me. I'm with you. For me, I find them fun and I enjoy them, but they're not necessarily "good" movies - they never were. But whereas you see promise for good and bad (which of course there will be), I'm just getting bored of it entirely. I'd rather see more movies (as crappy as they are) like Valerian and Jupiter Ascending get made then March of the Porgs or Hard Ticket to Hoth.

 

I'd be first in line for Hard Ticket to Hoth. But only if they had a great theme song.

 

[tomspanks 9039]

March of the Porgs or Hard Ticket to Hoth

 

 

[taylor anne photo 11311]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY JUNE!

 

[firsttimecallerlongtimelistenr 3590]

 

It also makes me wonder if we would have seen this same freakout for The Empire Strikes Back or The Phantom Menace or even The Star Wars Holiday Special if social media had existed in those days. Is it something about The Last Jedi specifically or just modern Internet outrage culture?

imagine if twitter was around when the grandad wookiee was jerking off to Diahann Carroll ... it would have exploded the internet into tiny pieces ..

 

but i was reminded alot of the phantom menace as i watched this one. now i only saw the PM once, the day it came out, and i was gutted by it. i hated it for all the same reasons everyone else did. it was just a badly made movie full of gimmicks and characters based on merchandising sales rather than story development. every time i saw a new little alien pop up i was like "oh ... here we go again" .. i feel like i should qualify some of these comments though...

 

when i go see a star wars movie and get asked was it any good i always start my reply with "there are 2 sides to star wars .. the one with the amazing story and action scenes, which i really like, and the other which can be summed by the cantina scene" ... i hate the cantina scene. all these really badly designed aliens doing nothing but making noises and getting in the way. it's the cheese i hate. and this movie is full of it.

i was gutted when the got to the casino because i knew they were just trying to recreate the cantina scene. and they even failed at that.

 

 

it's like product placement. if done right it doesn't get in the way and we all get what we want. if done wrong ... i'm looking at you Jurassic world .. it is intrusive and you feel kinda dirty after it. that's what i felt like watching this movie. they can't have product placement in these movies so they create these cute little aliens solely for merchandising purposes. they distract me so much i'm taken out of the movie and into a toy shop ... there were too many of those moments in TLJ.

 

and add onto that that i thought the editing was done by a studio exec and that caused a john williams score to sound like a collection of snippets from the previous movie's scores. there was no fluency in the story telling. it was a mess.

 

and the 3 things i will never get over were:

 

 

1: just how slow the first order were at everything. so slow. they were so slow at blowing up those escape pods it was stupid. actually no .. they treated me as if i was stupid. it was insultingly slow.

 

2: the way the scenes between luke and rey were structured. it really did feel like i was watching a bruce willis movie. you know how he just does his scenes on his own now and he's rarely on screen with anyone. i kept asking myself if mark hamill and daisely ridley were together when they filmed all those scenes? they were rarely on screen at the same time. next time you're watching it try to count the times where you actually see them together on screen and not just talking to a space slightly off camera. at one stage rey was talking and lukes head came into shot and it was clearly just some dude in a wig. and more scenes where rey is talking and all you see is luke form the chest down. it's hard enough to watch people talk gibberish but when they're obviously talking gibberish to no one ... it became silly. and it really made daisy look like a bad actress. she was terrible in the scenes on luke's island. i felt sorry for her. she was so good in TFA. same goes for john boyega. how many times did he stumble on something or bump into something or fall over ... he spent most of this movie waking up from some stun gun or something...

 

and 3 ... MAJOR SPOILERS HERE .. :luke's "hologram" bit .. how many times has that been done before? when it was revealed he wasn't actually there I just felt cheated and then angry cause it was so cheap. it sums up how awful the script was and how little originality there is in this movie. and i know people will say how it was "foreshadowed" and how clever it was that they actually tell you earlier in the film etc etc but at the end of the day the whole thing was just an old bit, done over and over again on old star trek episodes. you know what .. it was lazy .. that's the word i'm looking for... LAZY!

 

 

 

look, i didn't like it yesterday as i watched it and having time to think about it i like it even less now. i was really pumped for it after seeing all the positive reviews and seeing paul's love for it on twitter and instagram but man was it a let down. i can't get past all of the above ... it's poorly made, gimmicky, bad acting, bitty score, nonsensical slowness .. and the lack of heart and laziness ...i better stop.... i'm either boring ye or insulting ye. it kinda feels like i'm try to persuade people not to like it and that's not fair. if you like it great. i'm not massively knowledgeable in the world of star wars or movie making/criticism, i'm just telling you how i feel. i told someone the other day that i thought mother was one of my favorite movies of last year and i nearly got my head bitten off. we all have different experiences when we go into a cinema and that's why i love movies.

 

anyway though ... enough of my ramblings ... roll on episode 9!!!! (or whatever spin off is next up)

[FisterRoboto 7499]

I loved TLJ, and while everyone is entitled to their opinions, I think it's funny to hear things like "SW movies just come out too frequently" when we live in a world where there are at least three Marvel movies per year (and one to two Netflix series). I'm so burned out on those movies, even if I totally loved Thor because it was a refreshing change of pace, so I guess I kind of get why people might feel that way about SW. But at the same time, we only get one of the main story every two years, and I stay really excited about those.

 

I hated Rogue One, and I don't really care about the other two spin-offs they have planned (which isn't to say I won't be there opening night). I was a bit excited about the Han Solo movie because I wanted to see what Miller and Lord would do with it. But now that they've gone with Ron Howard, I feel like it's going to be a pretty boring, safe movie.

 

About TLJ, I think a lot of the comparisons to The Empire Strikes Back are spot on. That's a movie that the "hardcore" fans absolutely hated at the time it was released. It was so different from what came before it, and the reveal of DV being Luke's dad was pretty controversial. Critics just kind of shit all over it, and the fan reviews weren't great either. However, we lived in a time before the internet, so they aren't as easy to track down. But I have read a few articles like (warning: pretty big TLJ spoilers!) this one filled with a lot of people giving the same kind of criticism that seems to be finding its way straight back to TLJ.

 

Aaaaaanyway, some other random thoughts because I just read through this thread:

 

I think that's just Detroit lol.

I thought you were talking about the Kathryn Bigelow movie at first, and I was like, "What? That's set in the 60s"

 

 

Okay, I’ve got an end of the year question for the forum. What movie could you not stop talking/thinking about this year? It doesn’t have to be from 2017. It doesn’t have to be good or bad. It just has to be remarkable.

For 2017 movies, it was definitely A Ghost Story. I was really hesitant to even see the movie because of human trash can Casey Affleck. So I went with a free pass I had so I could at least be glad I wasn't spending any real money on it. And I ended up absolutely loving it. There's so much to the movie, and I totally love its themes of time and memory and how people exist only when others remember them (something I loved just as much when it appeared months later in Coco).

 

For non-2017 movies, I'm kind of ashamed to say it was Rent. Even though the film version was....not great, watching it for MM finally convinced me to watch the stage version. And I fell in love with it. I couldn't even begin to count how many times I've listened to the Broadway soundtrack since we watched it.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

I loved TLJ, and while everyone is entitled to their opinions, I think it's funny to hear things like "SW movies just come out too frequently" when we live in a world where there are at least three Marvel movies per year (and one to two Netflix series). I'm so burned out on those movies, even if I totally loved Thor because it was a refreshing change of pace, so I guess I kind of get why people might feel that way about SW. But at the same time, we only get one of the main story every two years, and I stay really excited about those.

That's a totally fair point. I guess because in all honesty Star Wars means that much more to me than Marvel movies do (shocking I know) then it doesn't seem like it's been two years since TFA came out. Maybe that's the opposite of how most people feel? Idk lol. But it might also have to do with marketing and toys and seeing a commercial for the new American Idol and BB-8 shows up. It's just everywhere in a way that nothing else really is and that can feel like too much sometimes.

 

And yeah I say that as a girl who is literally planning her Star Wars tattoo, so I get the irony here lmao.

[FisterRoboto 7499]

But it might also have to do with marketing and toys and seeing a commercial for the new American Idol and BB-8 shows up. It's just everywhere in a way that nothing else really is and that can feel like too much sometimes.

Maybe that's why I feel that way about Marvel. I usually see 2-3 movies a week in the theater, and it's rare that I don't see a Marvel trailer. I don't watch that much TV, or when I do, it's DVR'd or on Hulu, so I either don't see ads or can skip right past them. I think I might also just be blind to how much SW is everywhere because it feels like it's been pretty ubiquitous for most of my life.

[Cameron H. 23786]

That's a totally fair point. I guess because in all honesty Star Wars means that much more to me than Marvel movies do (shocking I know) then it doesn't seem like it's been two years since TFA came out. Maybe that's the opposite of how most people feel? Idk lol. But it might also have to do with marketing and toys and seeing a commercial for the new American Idol and BB-8 shows up. It's just everywhere in a way that nothing else really is and that can feel like too much sometimes.

 

And yeah I say that as a girl who is literally planning her Star Wars tattoo, so I get the irony here lmao.

 

Exactly. There's always been an insane marketing push for Star Wars, but since they were fewer and farther between, it didn't seem so bad. Now it feels like a constant stream. Everywhere I go people are talking about it, debating it, calling each other nerds (or worse) over it. It feels like it's the only thing going on in the world. Shit, I haven't even seen the fucking thing and here I am talking about it! lol

 

Also, like Taylor Anne said, I don't really care about Marvel as much. I've never heard anyone try to make to make that comparison until now. I'm just saying it feels like the McDonaldsification of Star Wars. As they've always been, the movies will be fine (if you're hungry enough), but I'm not sure if they will ever be "special" in the way they were. And even if one does manage to do something different, will we even be able to notice at that point? Will we even care?

[taylor anne photo 11311]

Maybe that's why I feel that way about Marvel. I usually see 2-3 movies a week in the theater, and it's rare that I don't see a Marvel trailer. I don't watch that much TV, or when I do, it's DVR'd or on Hulu, so I either don't see ads or can skip right past them. I think I might also just be blind to how much SW is everywhere because it feels like it's been pretty ubiquitous for most of my life.

I actually don't have cable either so these are purely the ads I get on services like Hulu that still have commercials on them. Especially when I am watching Fox shows like B99 or Bob's Burgers and they'll show the same gd 5 ads over and over until I want to gauge my eyes out. But in all honesty I never noticed the SW ads ever until this year. I think with the addition of porgs they went a little crazy on the marketing front and I literally couldn't go anywhere or see anything without Star Wars being mentioned. Even crazy shit like H&R Block like make sure all Jedis get their taxes done or some bull shit lol.

 

I also took a big break from the Marvel fandom this year and even though I did see all the movies I still have yet to watch Punisher and I'm just kinda not seeking out things online like I used to and it's made the movies much more enjoyable (even though I still thought Guardians 2 was pretty mediocre especially when compared to Spider-Man and Thor this year).

[tomspanks 9039]

Re: Toys and Star Wars - There is a series on Netflix called Toys That Made Us and one episode is about the Star Wars toys. George Lucas was absolutely on board with merchandising the crap out of Star Wars from the very beginning. So much that they actually marketed and sold the Star Wars toys even before they were done manufacturing them.

[Elektra Boogaloo 3371]

Paul got to work with Mel Brooks on SPACEBALLS 2? THE MEL BROOKS from "Solarbabies"?!?

 

http://www.indiewire.com/2018/01/paul-scheer-the-disaster-artist-the-room-tommy-wiseau-last-jedi-turn-it-on-podcast-1201913023/

 

That's the dream.

[Cameron H. 23786]

Re: Toys and Star Wars - There is a series on Netflix called Toys That Made Us and one episode is about the Star Wars toys. George Lucas was absolutely on board with merchandising the crap out of Star Wars from the very beginning. So much that they actually marketed and sold the Star Wars toys even before they were done manufacturing them.

 

It’s not the merchandising that I find to be a problem, it’s that there’s no respite from it. And with a constant stream of movies, it’s only going to get worse. Like both Fister and Taylor, I also don’t have cable so I couldn’t tell you how often the commercials run, but I can tell you that I will see at least one porg and one lightsaber today *somewhere*

[tomspanks 9039]

It’s not the merchandising that I find to be a problem, it’s that there’s no respite from it. And with a constant stream of movies, it’s only going to get worse. Like both Fister and Taylor, I also don’t have cable so I couldn’t tell you how often the commercials run, but I can tell you that I will see at least one porg and one lightsaber today *somewhere*

 

My comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular. I thought the episode about the Star Wars toys was really interesting. Not sure how much of it is dramatized, but they said that the frenzy surrounding Star Wars toys changed how movies are made. Anyway, I liked the little anecdotes scattered throughout the episode like when one of the toy guys needed to present the Jawa figurine on a tight timeline and he couldn't find the right type of fabric for the robe, so he cut up his sock that he was wearing at the time and made a quick outfit out of it. He was all I hope Lucas doesn't smell it.