Musical Mondays Week 86 Purple Rain

[Quasar Sniffer 4174]

I LIKE several Prince songs ("When Doves Cry" is definitely an all-time banger and I enjoy many other songs on the soundtrack), but I'm definitely not an out-and-out fan of The Purple One, so this one was difficult for me to get behind. Prince certainly has charisma as a performer, but he is NOT an actor. So seeing this guy, you know, hit his girlfriend and be a total primadonna prick to his bandmates, then have the film ask me to have sympathy for HIM? Not happening. Thankfully, the movie has a higher musical-performance-to-story-ratio than Rocky IV has montages, so that actually helps.

Also, Prince is freqently told "you're losing it, kid" and Morris and the club owner talk about how "the kid doesn't have it anymore" right after Prince... performs a Prince song. But... it just seems like as intense and well-orchestrated a performance as any of the ones the audience sees as amazing. Are we supposed to be behind Prince in these moments, that his talent is unrecognized? If so, why do people all of the sudden think he's losing it during the middle of the film? If he really IS losing it, if his performance quality dips, how is that manifested? There is that one song that seems to be directed at Apollonia, which is pretty dickish, and he sort of storms off, which is also dickish, but it's not like the song is objectively bad or anything. Or am I wrong?

If his performance quality WAS dipping, it would have been nice if he actually did incorporate some of the songs or song ideas his bandmates offered to try and improve the band, instead of shrugging them off like a petulant toddler told to share his action figures.

[Cameron H. 23786]

8 minutes ago, Quasar Sniffer said:

I LIKE several Prince songs ("When Doves Cry" is definitely an all-time banger and I enjoy many other songs on the soundtrack), but I'm definitely not an out-and-out fan of The Purple One, so this one was difficult for me to get behind. Prince certainly has charisma as a performer, but he is NOT an actor. So seeing this guy, you know, hit his girlfriend and be a total primadonna prick to his bandmates, then have the film ask me to have sympathy for HIM? Not happening. Thankfully, the movie has a higher musical-performance-to-story-ratio than Rocky IV has montages, so that actually helps.

Also, Prince is freqently told "you're losing it, kid" and Morris and the club owner talk about how "the kid doesn't have it anymore" right after Prince... performs a Prince song. But... it just seems like as intense and well-orchestrated a performance as any of the ones the audience sees as amazing. Are we supposed to be behind Prince in these moments, that his talent is unrecognized? If so, why do people all of the sudden think he's losing it during the middle of the film? If he really IS losing it, if his performance quality dips, how is that manifested? There is that one song that seems to be directed at Apollonia, which is pretty dickish, and he sort of storms off, which is also dickish, but it's not like the song is objectively bad or anything. Or am I wrong?

If his performance quality WAS dipping, it would have been nice if he actually did incorporate some of the songs or song ideas his bandmates offered to try and improve the band, instead of shrugging them off like a petulant toddler told to share his action figures.

I might be wrong, but it’s not so much as he’s slipping as the audience is falling behind. After he storms off, the club owner tells him “no one gets your songs but you.” The Kid is an Artist while Morris Day is commercial.

[Quasar Sniffer 4174]

2 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

I might be wrong, but it’s not so much as he’s slipping as the audience is falling behind. After he storms off, the club owner tells him “no one gets your songs but you.” The Kid is an Artist while Morris Day is commercial.

Totally, but it seemed like, to me, his MOST artistic song was the "Purple Rain" performance at the end. So then... does the audience and the club owner finally catch up to his genius?

[Cameron H. 23786]

20 minutes ago, Quasar Sniffer said:

Totally, but it seemed like, to me, his MOST artistic song was the "Purple Rain" performance at the end. So then... does the audience and the club owner finally catch up to his genius?

I’m...30 minutes from the end

[grudlian. 4725]

I didn't rewatch this but my main recollection is that all the criticisms brought up here are accurate. But Prince, for as bad as an actor he is, is so charismatic that he's kind of watchable even when he isn't performing. But the performances and songs are so good that this is still worth checking out. 

[Cameron H. 23786]

4 hours ago, Quasar Sniffer said:

Totally, but it seemed like, to me, his MOST artistic song was the "Purple Rain" performance at the end. So then... does the audience and the club owner finally catch up to his genius?

Okay, I’ve finished. Here’s my take: one of the complaints the club owner levels against him was his songs were too personal. He wants commercial music about flapping birds and shit to get people dancing. Knowing that’s what was wanted, The Kid plays “Purple Rain” anyway because he’s like “Fuck it. I’m going out on my terms and I’ll play the *most* personal song.” The catch is, it wasn’t written exclusively by him. He achieves a kind of synthesis where he can write cathartic music for himself while reaching out to others.  At the same time, he’s also relinquishing his absolute control over everything and humbling himself. The result is an epic song that is both commercial and personal.

The people couldn’t relate to his songs about some woman named Nikki masturbating with a magazine in a hotel lobby, but they could relate to a song about loss. “Purple Rain” allows the audience to finally connect with him, and through that connection, it opens the doors for them to appreciate his other songs.

(Uh...maybe? I’m not super confident in this answer.)

[AlmostAGhost 2718]

5 hours ago, Quasar Sniffer said:

Totally, but it seemed like, to me, his MOST artistic song was the "Purple Rain" performance at the end. So then... does the audience and the club owner finally catch up to his genius?

Yea, that's exactly what happens

[GrahamS. 803]

1 hour ago, Cameron H. said:

Okay, I’ve finished. Here’s my take: one of the complaints the club owner levels against him was his songs were too personal. He wants commercial music about flapping birds and shit to get people dancing. Knowing that’s what was wanted, The Kid plays “Purple Rain” anyway because he’s like “Fuck it. I’m going out on my terms and I’ll play the *most* personal song.” The catch is, it wasn’t written exclusively by him. He achieves a kind of synthesis where he can write cathartic music for himself while reaching out to others.  At the same time, he’s also relinquishing his absolute control over everything and humbling himself. The result is an epic song that is both commercial and personal.

The people couldn’t relate to his songs about some woman named Nikki masturbating with a magazine in a hotel lobby, but they could relate to a song about loss. “Purple Rain” allows the audience to finally connect with him, and through that connection, it opens the doors for them to appreciate his other songs.

(Uh...maybe? I’m not super confident in this answer.)

I think this connection rings true.

i thought purple rain and Star were great conclusions to the movie. I still don’t think he earned Appolonia’s affections, but “it’s a movie.”

what I found weird about the Darling Nikki  and The Beautiful Ones performances is that he seemed to make them up on the spot as a reaction to Appolonia...and his band knew exactly what to do spontaneously. I don’t require reality to interfere with musicals—which this film kind of is—but I do like to know the ground rules so I can accept it.

Ok, I’m done nitpicking now!

[gigi-tastic 2322]

15 hours ago, GrahamS. said:

I actually suggested this as an HDTGM film, not because I think it’s bad (I’d give it a C+, for reasons I’ll get into) but because it’s insanely 80s (which I’m sure June would enjoy) and also intensely problematic.

Here’s what I said:

This will be a controversial choice. I just watched this. Here are the things that are good about this movie.

 1. Prince’s opening and closing performances.

2. Morris Day (who’s also fucking awesome). Acting-wise, he’s the best thing in this film. Pretty much every scene he’s in is funny. And his music numbers are entertaining.

otherwise, holy shit,Prince is a fucking asshole in this film. And I’m a Prince fan. I’m legitimately surprised that he allowed himself to look THIS bad. Perhaps he thought he was giving off a tortured artist vibe—and the film is semi-autobiographical—but he treats Appolonia (and pretty much all the women around him) like shit. Why her character is romantically drawn to him is a totally underdeveloped mystery, since he abuses her fairly routinely.

Also: I will go out on a limb and say Computer Blue is a terrible song. So is Appolonia’s song.

Dont get me wrong, the soundtrack to this movie largely kicks ass and some of the musical sequences are great (and besides Morris Day, they’re the main reason to watch the film). But man, there’s some dark stuff here that’s given a superficial 80s music-video style treatment, and it’s pretty fucking jarring.

i know people—especially Jason—would object, but I would be interested in hearing Jason, June and Paul take an honest look at this film. I know this film has an iconic reputation, but goddamn is it problematic

Thank you!! I was ready to write a scathing rant on his incredible bitch baby antics! Just because you're talented doesn't mean you can treat people like shit. 

[gigi-tastic 2322]

I need a movie just on Jerome. A man who will throw a woman into a dumpster and whose is a cartoonish modern Jeeves is a man I need to know more about

[gigi-tastic 2322]

The. Number 1 reason The Kid can't be trusted is that he likes those creepy Venetian clown dolls

 

No one who collects those demons is sane

[gigi-tastic 2322]

9 hours ago, Quasar Sniffer said:

I LIKE several Prince songs ("When Doves Cry" is definitely an all-time banger and I enjoy many other songs on the soundtrack), but I'm definitely not an out-and-out fan of The Purple One, so this one was difficult for me to get behind. Prince certainly has charisma as a performer, but he is NOT an actor. So seeing this guy, you know, hit his girlfriend and be a total primadonna prick to his bandmates, then have the film ask me to have sympathy for HIM? Not happening. Thankfully, the movie has a higher musical-performance-to-story-ratio than Rocky IV has montages, so that actually helps.

Also, Prince is freqently told "you're losing it, kid" and Morris and the club owner talk about how "the kid doesn't have it anymore" right after Prince... performs a Prince song. But... it just seems like as intense and well-orchestrated a performance as any of the ones the audience sees as amazing. Are we supposed to be behind Prince in these moments, that his talent is unrecognized? If so, why do people all of the sudden think he's losing it during the middle of the film? If he really IS losing it, if his performance quality dips, how is that manifested? There is that one song that seems to be directed at Apollonia, which is pretty dickish, and he sort of storms off, which is also dickish, but it's not like the song is objectively bad or anything. Or am I wrong?

If his performance quality WAS dipping, it would have been nice if he actually did incorporate some of the songs or song ideas his bandmates offered to try and improve the band, instead of shrugging them off like a petulant toddler told to share his action figures.

Thank you! Literally every performance looks like the crowd is eating it up because it's  Prince but they keep going on about how he hasn't been bringing in the crowds FROM THE START OF THE MOVIE. Like right after the first night at the club which was jam packed and in love with his song the club owner ( Another person I'm fascinated by and would rather have a movie about)  and Morris are talking about how he's failing like his father before him and no one is coming to see him play. You can have Prince give an amazing performance and have a small amount of people or have the crowd not respond but you can't show us the audience loving Prince and then tell us he's bad. It's contradictory storytelling. 

[gigi-tastic 2322]

Does Apollonia own outfits that aren't cape and lingerie related or is this her main "look" for evening? I'm not saying I don't now also want a scarf cape to take from night to day ( very 80's doing day to night looks) I'm just saying perhaps give pants a chance.

On the topic of pants and Apollonia looks I would have killed the Kid if I had to get back in an all leather outfit after being bullied into jumping in lake. I can't even get my leggings on comfortably if I'm running late and forget to let my lotion dry after a shower! Imagine the hell of getting into leather pants soaking wet! 

[gigi-tastic 2322]

If we remove the performances from the movie this is a dark story of abuse. Like we see the Kid's parents in a deeply upsetting physically abusive relationship that ends with the father shot in the head . The story shows that both The Kid and his mother will stay in the abusive situation with him. There is no hope there at the end.  We see that the Kid also has abusive traits ( the cycle repeating itself as it so often does) and has been very abusive to Alpollonia. I don't really have hope for that situation either as he never really had a true come to Jesus moment so to speak.

There's a great book called Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft. It's kind of known as the bible for abusive men. He's a counselor who has worked with countless abusive men and through his work, if willing to put in the work and acknowledge that they are abusive many of his client's have been able to become better and leave their abusive ways behind. Of course that's only possible IF the abuser acknowledges their issues and actively seeks to change.  

 

so I don't think that the Kid's father is irredeemable. However I think that he doesn't have the tools to change and I don't know if he is willing to. I never got the sense that the Kid really wants to change either. It's going to be a cycle of control and jealous heated fights between him and Apollonia . He will make it up to her in some grand passionate way because he's a temperamental artist she will see it as romantic and not as a way to keep her under is control. It's going to be good for a while then he's going to go in one of his moods. Keep in mind he abuses more than just her, he's often just as cruel to his band members and we never saw him opening up as a person to them on a real level. I feel like he's going to be back to sulking and being a dick with his puppet any time now.

I see the story we saw as their family cycle continuing. To me it looks like the only change is that we see the next generation take it on and that's bleak as fuck.

Thank God for the music video portions

[Quasar Sniffer 4174]

2 hours ago, gigi-tastic said:

so I on't think that the Kid's father is irredeemable. However I think that he doesn't have the tools to change and I don't know if he is willing to. I never got the sense that the Kid really wants to change either. It's going to be a cycle of control and jealous heated fights between him and Apollonia . He will make it up to her in some grand passionate way because he's a temperamental artist she will see it as romantic and not as a way to keep her under is control. It's going to be good for a while then he's going to go in one of his moods. Keep in mind he abuses more than just her, he's often just as cruel to his band members and we never saw him opening up as a person to them on a real level. I feel like he's going to be back to sulking and being a dick with his puppet any time now.

I see the story we saw as their family cycle continuing. To me it looks like the only change is that we see the next generation take it on and that's bleak as fuck.

Thank God for the music video portions

Agreed. And part of what kept me from sympathizing with The Kid is that his whole motivation for getting Apollonia's affections back or trying to make it up to her in some way was to help his music career. I think he knew she was talented and that she inspired him. Further, his personal feelings were dominated by jealousy because she left him for Morris, so while he may have regretted hitting her, he didn't feel the need to win her back or even want to make amends until he saw where Apollonia went after leaving him.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

16 hours ago, GrahamS. said:

How are the other two?

I'm in the middle of Graffiti Bridge but so far it's not bad.  It's very close to the vibe of Purple Rain but a different focus.  Prince still plays The Kid and he & Morris are club owners battling for ownership of Prince's club.  As Morris puts it in an interview he and The Time were small-time crooks in Purple Rain.  In Graffiti Bridge they are big-time crooks.  There is a lot of New Power Generation music and several good performances so far.  Prince looks a lot different.

Under the Cherry Moon is a rom-com.  Prince doesn't even try to be Prince.  He's playing a character.  He and his brother (played by Jerome Benton but not as the Jerome character from Purple Rain) compete to win the affections of a woman who will gain access to a $50 million trust fund.  (Shades of Dirty Rotten Scoundrels but without any charm.)  The only Prince & The Revolution song featured is Kiss.  The rest are played in the background.  Even that music is spare.  Most of it is more "cartoonish".  The movie wants to be a 1920s/1930s movie but is set in the 1980s.  It is shot in black and white and Prince's face gets super white.

 

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

5 hours ago, gigi-tastic said:

Does Apollonia own outfits that aren't cape and lingerie related or is this her main "look" for evening? I'm not saying I don't now also want a scarf cape to take from night to day ( very 80's doing day to night looks) I'm just saying perhaps give pants a chance.

On the topic of pants and Apollonia looks I would have killed the Kid if I had to get back in an all leather outfit after being bullied into jumping in lake. I can't even get my leggings on comfortably if I'm running late and forget to let my lotion dry after a shower! Imagine the hell of getting into leather pants soaking wet! 

The leather thing bothers me too.  Especially because the pants are close to skin tight.  Yet she drops them easily by the lake.  I would have expected some struggling to get them off.

[gigi-tastic 2322]

1 hour ago, Quasar Sniffer said:

Agreed. And part of what kept me from sympathizing with The Kid is that his whole motivation for getting Apollonia's affections back or trying to make it up to her in some way was to help his music career. I think he knew she was talented and that she inspired him. Further, his personal feelings were dominated by jealousy because she left him for Morris, so while he may have regretted hitting her, he didn't feel the need to win her back or even want to make amends until he saw where Apollonia went after leaving him.

The worst part is she never actively left him. She pawned her bracelet for his guitar and tells him she's thinking of making a career choice. She was always up front with him and wasn't saying she was going to be sleeping with Morris or even that she liked his music. Just that she thought it was a good job for her and she *might* take it. The Kid is SO jealous and insecure he hit her because she was talking about the possibility of taking a job. That's like your boyfriend going ape shit over you taking a job at Pizza Hut when he's a sworn Dominoes man. And it's not like he helped offer get her any work! Not even as part of his act or at the club.  In fact, of the two Morris was technically the only one to actually help her do anything.  Was he doing it because he was a creep? Yes. But does he hit women who he's seeing? No he technically has his best friend/ butler/ side kick throw them in dumpsters. Is this better? Not really but at least he kept his word? 

 

You guys a man literally threw a woman in a dumpster in this film. I cannot stress that enough

[Quasar Sniffer 4174]

4 minutes ago, gigi-tastic said:

The worst part is she never actively left him. She pawned her bracelet for his guitar and tells him she's thinking of making a career choice. She was always up front with him and wasn't saying she was going to be sleeping with Morris or even that she liked his music. Just that she thought it was a good job for her and she *might* take it. The Kid is SO jealous and insecure he hit her because she was talking about the possibility of taking a job. That's like your boyfriend going ape shit over you taking a job at Pizza Hut when he's a sworn Dominoes man. And it's not like he helped offer get her any work! Not even as part of his act or at the club.  In fact, of the two Morris was technically the only one to actually help her do anything.  Was he doing it because he was a creep? Yes. But does he hit women who he's seeing? No he technically has his best friend/ butler/ side kick throw them in dumpsters. Is this better? Not really but at least he kept his word? 

 

You guys a man literally threw a woman in a dumpster in this film. I cannot stress that enough

And what weirds me out about this whole thing is that this is how Prince wanted us to see him! This is his movie, his story! He portrays himself as a troubled genius who is redeemed, not only for his petulance and disrespect to his fellow musicians, but also his physical and emotional abuse of the woman he loves. All because... he's the best club act in Minneapolis? No thanks. I mean, it's obviously REAL SHITTY that you grew up with a profoundly disturbed and abusive father, but I wish the movie did more to show him trying to turn away from that inherited trauma. Instead, he lets it take him over, but everything is ok at the end because "Purple Rain" is a sweet, sweet jam.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

22 minutes ago, Quasar Sniffer said:

And what weirds me out about this whole thing is that this is how Prince wanted us to see him! This is his movie, his story! He portrays himself as a troubled genius who is redeemed, not only for his petulance and disrespect to his fellow musicians, but also his physical and emotional abuse of the woman he loves. All because... he's the best club act in Minneapolis? No thanks. I mean, it's obviously REAL SHITTY that you grew up with a profoundly disturbed and abusive father, but I wish the movie did more to show him trying to turn away from that inherited trauma. Instead, he lets it take him over, but everything is ok at the end because "Purple Rain" is a sweet, sweet jam.

I'm rewatching it now to see what I thought was good but the abuse is very bad.  I really liked the waitress who Apollonia first meets.  She is very sweet on Prince but he's an asshole to her as well.  Early she says "I'll be here" wanting him to take it as a reason to show up even if no one else arrives.  He just gives his wry smile and dismisses her.  Then she gives him the Purple Rain tape and he starts bitching about Wendy and Lisa not talking to him.  At the end when he comes back in she's there almost bawling her eyes out and he just says "Hi."!!!!

What's worse is that specific actress, Jill Jones, was a girlfriend of Prince's at one time.  She's of Italian, Native American, and African American ancestry but Prince wanted her "whitewashed", to look white.  She's much more natural in Graffiti Bridge but he's still an asshole to her.

[grudlian. 4725]

41 minutes ago, Quasar Sniffer said:

And what weirds me out about this whole thing is that this is how Prince wanted us to see him! This is his movie, his story! He portrays himself as a troubled genius who is redeemed, not only for his petulance and disrespect to his fellow musicians, but also his physical and emotional abuse of the woman he loves. All because... he's the best club act in Minneapolis? No thanks. I mean, it's obviously REAL SHITTY that you grew up with a profoundly disturbed and abusive father, but I wish the movie did more to show him trying to turn away from that inherited trauma. Instead, he lets it take him over, but everything is ok at the end because "Purple Rain" is a sweet, sweet jam.

I think Prince didn't see any problem with it. From what I've read, he would drop women in his life pretty easily which is kind of what happened to Vanity. I don't know if he was dumping women in dumpsters irl, but he definitely comes across as misogynist.  He was also pretty openly homophobic until he died. I don't think I've read or heard a single Prince story about him being "normal" or stable. He's always portrayed as a weird, temperamental recluse. Maybe he's super loyal to his closest friends but that seems like it was, at most, a very tiny circle.

And people do turn a blind eye to it or even celebrate it because, well, he was one hell of a performer.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

19 minutes ago, grudlian. said:

I think Prince didn't see any problem with it. From what I've read, he would drop women in his life pretty easily which is kind of what happened to Vanity. I don't know if he was dumping women in dumpsters irl, but he definitely comes across as misogynist.  He was also pretty openly homophobic until he died. I don't think I've read or heard a single Prince story about him being "normal" or stable. He's always portrayed as a weird, temperamental recluse. Maybe he's super loyal to his closest friends but that seems like it was, at most, a very tiny circle.

And people do turn a blind eye to it or even celebrate it because, well, he was one hell of a performer.

I wanted to say something like this but you phrased it much more eloquently.  The Revolution as a group broke up just two years after the release of Purple Rain.  They lost members before the Purple Rain lineup for the same reasons.  They felt they were being held back, weren't respected, didn't have opportunities, etc.  This applied to both men and women.  From Wikipedia.

On the next two tours following the Prince Tour, the band underwent two line-up changes. Gayle Chapman, quit the band in 1980.[3] The end came when she told Prince she need more musical fulfillment and growth for herself, but Prince wanted her to commit to some short-noticed rehearsals instead. After a long conversation, Chapman quit the group to be replaced by Lisa Coleman.[4][5]

The following year, after the Dirty Mind Tour, bass guitarist André Cymone would leave the band. Cymone, whose family gave Prince a home after he left his father's house, left over a number of grievances with Prince—little input in the studio, he wasn't getting credit for his contributions to Prince's music, and in general his desire to start his own career—and would have bitter feelings toward Prince as he later claimed that Prince stole many of his ideas that were used for the Time and that he created the bassline for Controversy's "Do Me, Baby".[4] Ultimately, Cymone was replaced by Mark Brown, renamed Brownmark by Prince.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

A little more

The words "and the Revolution" can be seen printed backwards on the cover of his fifth album 1999. The band members were curious as to if they were getting a real name, but Prince had held back from fully calling the group the Revolution partly because of Dez Dickerson's wishes to leave the band. When the 1999 Tour ended, Dez Dickerson finally left the band for religious reasons and was replaced by Lisa's childhood friend Wendy Melvoin. Prince told Dickerson that he needed three years from him, and Dickerson wasn't willing to commit. Prince told Dickerson he'd leave him on payroll and honor his contract, which Prince did. Dickerson went on to eventually work for independent Christian record label Star Song. Wendy and Lisa shortly thereafter formed a special bond with Prince and greatly influenced his output during the rest of their tenure in the band. Prince's former mostly R&B/funk offerings would be more diversified with rock, pop and classical music elements.

 

[AlmostAGhost 2718]

I'll add that most of the women in his life are still seriously loyal to him, and he often had female bands and engineers (music engineers are especially mainly men, esp. back then). I think womanizing and misogyny are quite different things which people blur. 

What I think it boils down to, as it always did with him, was control. That's his ENTIRE ethos. He played and wrote everything. He rebelled against music labels. That's why his bands didn't last. This probably showed up in the movie as him negging Apollonia and stuff like that, it's dated and immature, but that's him showing control. I don't think in any way is this misogyny though. 

The homophobia mainly crept in when he became a Jehovah's Witness in the late '90s. It's a crazy turn, since before that he was always so into sexual openness and challenging roles and androgyny and whatnot (I do wish Purple Rain tapped into that more). See, the "Kiss" video.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Here's a silly scene from Under the Cherry Moon.  I need to add this is Kristen Scott Thomas' movie debut and her wooden acting in this doesn't help matters.