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JulyDiaz

EPISODE 118.5 - MINISODE 118.5

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The biggest problem for me with Black Widow's character in AoU was that immediately followed Winter Soldier, which was the movie that finally turned her character into something other than "the hot chick with guns." Then they immediately were like, "Oh, well, back to being a walking vagina again, since that's clearly the only part of her that is useful!"

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I got around to watching this last night. It's so loud and just awful to listen to overall that I was angry at it. This is possibly the worst sound-mixed movie they've done, and I'm counting Birdemic. What in the literal fuck was going on when they mixed this? Let's turn Lisa Simpson way the fuck up and BOOM SHITTY AC/DC MUSIC EXPLOSION AC/DC.

 

Fuck this movie.

I had a really hard time hearing Estevez and Hingle's dialogue, especially in the early scene where Hingle wanted him to work off the clock. Estevez in particular had a bad case of the low-talking hero mumbles.

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I swear I was gonna post about how quippy Whedon's dialogues are and how they don't resemble normal human speech before I'd read your post.

 

Whedon's dialogues are nails scratching down the chalkboard of my brain. They are so smug and wink-y. And yes, full of quips. You know how writers usually write dialogues in service of plot and characters? It's as if Whedon's goals are to fill up the quotes page on IMDB and to generate content for Tumblr and Buzzfeed .

 

I think the Black Widow/Hulk relationship is icky too. Something about Black Widow's Hulk whispering.

 

Watching AoU it struck me that the dialogue, in addition to being annoying as fuck, also sounded really dated. There was a time it seems that everyone tried to write like Whedon, but people have thankfully moved on. Hopefully the Age of Whedon is over. I can't imagine studios would want to work with Whedon anymore what with his track record of badmouthing them. And if that means more opportunites for new-ish movie directors like Scott Derrickson, whose only notable work is the quite good Sinister, then even better.

 

Exactly, I wouldn't even say dated so much as, "not in line with the characters." The line Iron Man says, "You and Banner better not be playing hide the zucchini" is not only just gross, but is something a Middle Schooler might say, not an adult with Tony Stark's supposed level of sophistication.

 

And, not to bring up the "monster" thing again, I don't think it is terrible to write a character who can't have a child to feel "less than." I have an Aunt (my favorite Aunt) who has battled with cancer for much of her adult life. She has never had children--never even really expressed an interest in having children--but when she was in her forties, she had to have most of her reproductive organs removed to save her life. I remember sitting in a hotel room with her as she sobbed about how that made her feel. That even if she never had children of her own, and probably never would have anyway, she felt less like a woman because that option had been taken away from her. That's pretty heavy stuff. So I get where BW is coming from, but it is such a delicate issue that it can't be fully explored in a 5 minute scene in a movie where robots are trying to destroy the world--especially not in the context that she is comparing herself to a gigantic, rage monster, who may or may not have just killed a bunch of innocent people. And, at the very least, if you feel this line has to be in the movie, at least have Banner say, "You're not a monster..." They just leave it there, like, I guess since she can't have babies it must be true. Otherwise, take it out of the movie! It doesn't belong here. If you want her to feel like a monster, why not just bring up all the pre-established "red in her ledger" bull crap?

 

I'm sorry, guys. I know no one wants to come here and hear me rail against a movie that came out months ago, but damn. The more I think of it, the more AoU pisses me off. I hate the fact that there are three women in it--all of whom are supposed to be strong--and they are treated like crap. Aside from all the Black Widow nonsense, you have Maria Hill who is attacked on the Helicarrier and is not allowed to deliver the killing blow on a robot--she shoots it six times or so and then Fury has to jump in to finish it off.

 

You also have the Scarlet Witch, who is busy wrecking a bunch of Ultrons, but suddenly--in the middle of tearing them apart--is overcome with fear and needs Hawkeye to come in and give her a pep talk. What the Hell, movie? Why couldn't it be Quicksilver who is overcome? It might have made his death more impactful and less Whedon-esque "death for death's sake."

 

After seeing this movie, I couldn't be happier that the Russo's are taking over. Unfortunately, they are still saddled with a lot of Whedon's BS, but I think they'll be able to successfully navigate around the detritus.

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Oh man I can't believe I almost missed a bitchfest about Age of Ultron!

 

There are many great points that all of y'all made that I wanted to quote but there are just so many that I will say that I agree with 90% everyone said.

 

I liked the movie. But I went in expecting to love it. And the more I think about the points I didn't like the angrier at Whedon I get. Because, as many of you said, he thinks he is this great feminist but then when expected to actually do feminist quality work he has a full on tantrum and blames everyone around him. Then of course his super famous fanboys (LOOKING AT YOU PATTON OSWALT) jump to his defense and tell everyone they're just being too mean to the poor man-baby.

 

Can y'all tell I'm a little bitter about some of the things that happened?

 

Black Widow's characterization was a mess. Everything that had been set up for her in the previous films she had been in seemed to have disappeared in a heartbeat. Cameron H, I couldn't agree with you more about the "monster" line. It was so offensive to sit in that theater and hear the only woman in most of these movies talk about how the fact that she can't have children makes her less of a hero. Not even to mention the fact that that's not what her "graduation" from the red room really was. So not only did Whedon just get super offensive he just got so lazy while writing her. Also Natasha and Bruce??? WHAT??? Makes literally no sense for either of them. I'm not even saying that as someone who loved Natasha/Clint (if they had done to them what they had did with her and Bruce I would have still been just as perplexed and angry). Plus the line that Tony threw out about the cucumber genuinely made me so sick I wanted to walk out of the theater. (One of my friends actually did in the middle she hated it and was so bored).

 

Hawkeye's family is a thing that happens in the Ultimate comics that some people like... I do not. I hated that version of Hawkeye and considering they are using 616 Cap, 616 Tony, 616 Winter Soldier, 616 Black Widow, etc etc it didn't make any sense in this universe to bring in Ultimate Hawkeye. If they wanted to bring out the fact that he was human and still awesome they could have shown the side of Clint Barton that we see Matt Fraction writing, as a ton of y'all said, bro.

 

My Hawkeye is a human trash can who shows up an hour late with pizza, a dog, and a broken nose. Not the one building a damn chair in the yard with his son.

 

Plus his wife and children had no other point in this movie other than to boost his character's reputation and desirability and I have a huuuuuuge problem with women being used as plot points for male characters :)

 

The movie as a whole also seemed like Whedon was trying to take everything that everyone liked in the first movie and turn it up to 11 because the dialogue just seemed like a bunch of one liners strung together rather than actual believable conversations. It's just sad to see that someone who made such an amazing first movie with them have his head stuck up his ass with the second.

 

Pretty much just re-said what a lot of you did already but I wanted to solidify that as a woman who reads a ton of comics and LOVES the Avengers more than most things in my life (i did make my member status an avenger after all) this movie was not up to par with any of my expectations.

 

OH WAIT I AM SORRY BUT CAPTAIN AMERICA WOULD HAVE NEVER MADE CLINT BARTON LEAVE NATASHA BEHIND LIKE THAT! NEVER EVER!

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OH WAIT I AM SORRY BUT CAPTAIN AMERICA WOULD HAVE NEVER MADE CLINT BARTON LEAVE NATASHA BEHIND LIKE THAT! NEVER EVER!

 

AND HE DOES!!!!

 

He gives a look like, "Fuck, I guess I just leave her then. That sucks." To add to your 616 vs. Ultimate argument, 616 Hawkeye used to bump heads with Cap a lot--especially in the early days. So him disobeying Cap's order would not only make him more likeable ("Fuck him, I'm going to save my friend no matter the consequences."), but would have given him a reason to be insubordinate to Cap, which would have been in line with that characterization. You wouldn't even need his family to be there--who I am convinced are only in the movie to trick us into liking the movie version of Hawkeye.

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You wouldn't even need his family to be there--who I am convinced are only in the movie to trick us into liking the movie version of Hawkeye.

Totally agree. But I actually liked the Hawkeye from the first movie. I just wanted them to give him something to do. We didn't need this whole secret family bullshit to do that. Also, I totally love Linda Cardellini, so I was excited when I heard she was in the movie. Then I was so totally disappointed in what they did with her.

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AND HE DOES!!!!

 

He gives a look like, "Fuck, I guess I just leave her then. That sucks." To add to your 616 vs. Ultimate argument, 616 Hawkeye used to bump heads with Cap a lot--especially in the early days. So him disobeying Cap's order would not only make him more likeable ("Fuck him, I'm going to save my friend no matter the consequences."), but would have given him a reason to be insubordinate to Cap, which would have been in line with that characterization. You wouldn't even need his family to be there--who I am convinced are only in the movie to trick us into liking the movie version of Hawkeye.

Oh my gooooddddd that whole thing made me so angry. Like of course now Black Widow is the damsel in distress and her friends just fucking leave her. They even have set up how many times now that Clint is her best friend and now Cap would have thrown everything on the line for her after Winter Soldier? Such bull shit.

 

Even if they didn't do the whole bickering stuff between Clint and Steve like in the early 616 days right now they make it so clear that when Cap isn't around Clint gets dark when fighting. One of my favorite lines from the Matt Fraction run is when he says (not quoted because I'm too lazy to Google it and I'm trying to go on memory) "When Cap is around you just want to be a better person. You feel like you can be a better person around him. But look around... right now Cap ain't here." And that's the kind of Hawkeye I expected to be brought in to the MCU.

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Totally agree. But I actually liked the Hawkeye from the first movie. I just wanted them to give him something to do. We didn't need this whole secret family bullshit to do that. Also, I totally love Linda Cardellini, so I was excited when I heard she was in the movie. Then I was so totally disappointed in what they did with her.

I loooved Hawkeye in the first movie! I really didn't know that much about him before then and it's actually what made me start reading Matt Fraction! And to see the hint of the relationship between him and Natasha had me begging for more of them!

 

And I completely agree about Linda. That was a wasted opportunity.

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I loooved Hawkeye in the first movie! I really didn't know that much about him before then and it's actually what made me start reading Matt Fraction! And to see the hint of the relationship between him and Natasha had me begging for more of them!

 

And I completely agree about Linda. That was a wasted opportunity.

 

Can we all just stop for a moment and drool over Fraction's Hawkeye (Hawkguy? ) run?

 

Also, I doubt they'll have the budget for it, but I hope the Netflix Iron Fist show borrows liberally from his Immortal Iron Fist run. If you haven't read it, it is fantastic. Same artist (Aja) he had with Hawkeye. It made Iron Fist my favorite Marvel hero right beside (Richard Rider) Nova.

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Can we all just stop for a moment and drool over Fraction's Hawkeye (Hawkguy? ) run?

 

Also, I doubt they'll have the budget for it, but I hope the Netflix Iron Fist show borrows liberally from his Immortal Iron Fist run. If you haven't read it, it is fantastic. Same artist (Aja) he had with Hawkeye. It made Iron Fist my favorite Marvel hero right beside (Richard Rider) Nova.

4527172-2996455-hawkeye%2B009-019.jpg

 

I've been cosplaying as Kate at the last couple of cons that I've been to (first was her one of her outfits that she wore in California that the AMAZING Annie Wu drew and then second was the #9 cover) and yeah I want to drool all over that shit.

 

I haven't read the Iron Fist run yet but now I'm gonna! I decided to take a break because now that they did that huge Secret Wars thing all of my favorite runs ended and I'm too heartbroken to pick up the new stuff lol.

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I am decidedly NOT a Whedon fanboy and I wish the guy wouldn't air his Show Business dirty laundry like he's done, especially after the Avengers movies made bajillions for Marvel, Disney, and himself. Sure, I can see why someone involved in Fantastic Four would be super pissed about what happened to that film, but why blame other people for what happened on a movie that most people enjoyed (well, at least I did) and made everybody a bunch of money? I don't get it. Firefly, sure, give Fox shit; it's their fault for hiring Whedon to make a Whedon show, then getting scared and messing with it when it was too Whedon. But blaming Marvel for the content of AoU seems like burning bridges that are still perfectly functional and well-maintained and currently in use by motorists just trying to get to work. I just want good stories, man!

 

There was a comic series a few years back called Ex Machina about a guy with techno-kinesis who becomes Mayor of NYC after saving one of the Twin Towers on 9/11 and the series covers his past as well as his daily issues as Mayor. The first major arc concerns a controversy surrounding a painting featuring Abe Lincoln with the N-word painted across it being hung in museum. The mayor and his aides try to talk her out of hanging it due to the backlash from all sides, but she refuses saying her art can't be messed with and that she is a true artist. Eventually someone breaks into the museum and destroys the painting, ending the controversy, only for one of the aides to figure out it was the artist herself who did it so that she wouldn't lose face in front of her fans while at the same time be able to place a lot of blame on the Mayor's office.

 

After reading all of this crap from Whedon complaining about one thing or another or taking shots at someone, it brought that storyline back to mind for me. With him "leaving social media" and his outbursts towards other Marvel properties like the Punisher despite not knowing the source material, it seems to me like Joss didn't like what the spotlight brought him after years of being a big cult director. I'm sure there were chants of "sellout" after he decided to go from Firefly and Dr. Horrible to Avengers, and so by doing the stuff he's done, I feel it's a way to get back towards his small pond, but now with a lot more fisherman looking at it.

 

I actually like Alien: Resurrection a lot. We get to see more alien behavior (e.g. killing one of their own to escape) and we also see aliens underwater. And this is one of the most chilling scenes I've seen.

I also really enjoyed A:R and actually didn't know he wrote it until a year or so ago, which then became pretty evident after listening to the dialogue. Also, along with underwater aliens and the egg chambers, we got Sigourney Weaver legitimately nailing an backwards over-the-head freethrow in basketball.

 

 

I liked the movie. But I went in expecting to love it. And the more I think about the points I didn't like the angrier at Whedon I get. Because, as many of you said, he thinks he is this great feminist but then when expected to actually do feminist quality work he has a full on tantrum and blames everyone around him. Then of course his super famous fanboys (LOOKING AT YOU PATTON OSWALT) jump to his defense and tell everyone they're just being too mean to the poor man-baby.

I too was hoping to love this movie, though I just ended up liking it. As for Patton, he can have that ability sometimes to talk down to people, like during the Punisher episode when he said "only stupid people mention Kathryn Bigelow." It's kind of off putting and does nothing to help the cause.

 

Hawkeye's family is a thing that happens in the Ultimate comics that some people like... I do not. I hated that version of Hawkeye and considering they are using 616 Cap, 616 Tony, 616 Winter Soldier, 616 Black Widow, etc etc it didn't make any sense in this universe to bring in Ultimate Hawkeye. If they wanted to bring out the fact that he was human and still awesome they could have shown the side of Clint Barton that we see Matt Fraction writing, as a ton of y'all said, bro.
To be fair there are elements of the Ultimate versions of the characters in the MCU version, outside of Winter Soldier since he wasn't in the Ultimate Universe, though Bucky was. I did like the Ultimate Hawkeye for what he was as a modified soldier who became a total badass who could literally kill a person with his fingernails. His current version is a bit doofier, but in other series he's a part of like Secret Avengers it is revealed that he is a rather brilliant and calculating soldier, but he just acts aloof and stupid to lower everyone's expectations and guard when around him, something that even surprises Spiderwoman. The Fraction series doesn't show that because it doesn't need it as much due to Hawkeye fighting tracksuit wearing Russians who are trying to take over an apartment complex.
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To be fair there are elements of the Ultimate versions of the characters in the MCU version, outside of Winter Soldier since he wasn't in the Ultimate Universe, though Bucky was. I did like the Ultimate Hawkeye for what he was as a modified soldier who became a total badass who could literally kill a person with his fingernails. His current version is a bit doofier, but in other series he's a part of like Secret Avengers it is revealed that he is a rather brilliant and calculating soldier, but he just acts aloof and stupid to lower everyone's expectations and guard when around him, something that even surprises Spiderwoman. The Fraction series doesn't show that because it doesn't need it as much due to Hawkeye fighting tracksuit wearing Russians who are trying to take over an apartment complex.

 

This is true cause I think Thor is taken from his Ultimate versions. I just see more 616 stuff being worked into the MCU and it seems to really fit. In my opinion, Ultimate Hawkeye just doesn't. Especially with what you pointed out earlier, Black Widow killing his family would be another characters assassination with her.

 

Also all this talk about Kate Bishop made me drift away from JLaw making funny faces. But please someone tell me what constitutes a photo I can make my avatar?! I made one special for this moment and they refuse to accept it despite it fitting all the requirements!

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The ending crawl... explains that a UFO was destroyed by a Russian "weather satellite" equipped with nuclear missiles. Can we get a movie about THAT?

 

and we all know whos behind that..

 

i2io2t.jpg

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Then of course his super famous fanboys (LOOKING AT YOU PATTON OSWALT) jump to his defense and tell everyone they're just being too mean to the poor man-baby.

As for Patton, he can have that ability sometimes to talk down to people, like during the Punisher episode when he said "only stupid people mention Kathryn Bigelow." It's kind of off putting and does nothing to help the cause.

In between discovering a slew of amazing comedians on Earwolf and Patton Oswalt's various condescensions, I'm kinda over him.

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In between discovering a slew of amazing comedians on Earwolf and Patton Oswalt's various condescensions, I'm kinda over him.

I still listen to his stand-up because he's funny, but I've decided not to read most of what he says on social media. I think we've hit a point where we feel like we really have to like the artist himself/herself in order to appreciate the art. Those lines get even more blurred when it's something like comedy where, even when the artist is playing a persona, the art inevitably gets tied in with the artist. There are a lot of things I agree with Patton about, and there are a lot of things I disagree with him about, but I found I could easily enjoy his onstage material more when I ignored his offstage social media antics.

 

Exception: Eugene Mirman. Everyone should be following him because he is a hilarious rabble-rouser.

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Also, it's great whenever Seavers gets a shout-out on the podcast...

 

the-seavers.jpg

 

Mind you, who would believe that Alan Thicke might have a son who was a cocky smug little bellend who thinks he's God's gift to women?

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I still listen to his stand-up because he's funny, but I've decided not to read most of what he says on social media. I think we've hit a point where we feel like we really have to like the artist himself/herself in order to appreciate the art. Those lines get even more blurred when it's something like comedy where, even when the artist is playing a persona, the art inevitably gets tied in with the artist. There are a lot of things I agree with Patton about, and there are a lot of things I disagree with him about, but I found I could easily enjoy his onstage material more when I ignored his offstage social media antics.

For the most part I'm capable of separating art from the artist. I still plan on watching Captain America: Civil War even though both Jeremy Renner and Chris Evans called the Black Widow a slut. I still think Patton Oswalt can be funny. I just meant that I'm not going to actively seek out his stuff anymore. I only have so much time and energy and there are so much media to consume. But if a friend wants me to check out an Oswalt clip or something, I'm certainly not going to object.

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Also all this talk about Kate Bishop made me drift away from JLaw making funny faces. But please someone tell me what constitutes a photo I can make my avatar?! I made one special for this moment and they refuse to accept it despite it fitting all the requirements!

I have been trying for months to put a new photo up as my avatar and have had ZERO success. I put up a thread on the general questions forum and even sent a message to EW admin but have gotten nothing back.

I still listen to his stand-up because he's funny, but I've decided not to read most of what he says on social media. I think we've hit a point where we feel like we really have to like the artist himself/herself in order to appreciate the art. Those lines get even more blurred when it's something like comedy where, even when the artist is playing a persona, the art inevitably gets tied in with the artist. There are a lot of things I agree with Patton about, and there are a lot of things I disagree with him about, but I found I could easily enjoy his onstage material more when I ignored his offstage social media antics.

For me, I do enjoy Patton's comedy, outside of the political stuff but I don't like anytime a comedian gets into politics on stage because almost always it's that type of gladhanding that goes along with saying the city that you're in's name or talking about smoking weed. I feel Patton is right in that people as a whole have become overly sensitive to comedy these days, but that is overshadowed by some of the other things he rambles about. Though with the Kathryn Bigelow comment it really wasn't fair to say as he has talked about his "addiction" to films where he would watch hundreds a year, most in theater, so it's very safe to say his knowledge on film is a bit more substantial than the layperson. Though I myself am trying to see if I can watch 365 movies in a year, though I did start a bit late and am currently at 161.

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Confession: with the exception of a few titles, I've always been more of a DC guy (partly because Batman's been my jam since I was about 6 years old, and partly because I don't like a certain mustachioed former Marvel president that everyone seems to think is the fucking messiah).

 

But now I feel like I need to go read the Matt Fraction Hawkeye stuff because y'all have made it sound pretty great.

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In between discovering a slew of amazing comedians on Earwolf and Patton Oswalt's various condescensions, I'm kinda over him.

 

I have to say on the Kathryn Bigelow question I think he's right that only stupid people would say "we have enough female directors because Kathryn Bigelow" - do a lot of people say that though?

 

On your link to the Trever Noah scandal - while the article is spot on about the way Patton Oswalt defended Trever Noah being bullshit, I would like to say that Trever himself made no special pleading satire defence about those jokes, he just admitted they hadn't worked. If there is a defence of the fella it's that growing up as a mixed race boy in apartheid South Africa in which his very existence was a crime he probably has a different view on how thick skinned people should be and will no doubt have learned from the experience.

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I have to say on the Kathryn Bigelow question I think he's right that only stupid people would say "we have enough female director's because Kathryn Bigelow" - do a lot of people say that though?

Ahhhhh....it's been a while since I listened to that episode, and I was having a hard time placing what he said about stupid people and Kathryn Bigelow. I was trying to figure out when he said people that liked Kathryn Bigelow were stupid, but this is a totally different statement, and I remember it now that you helped clarify. And I don't know if he was saying that people say exactly that, but there are a lot of people that will point to a token person whenever someone brings up diversity, whether it's about women, people of color, or GLBT actors/directors/whatever. And I think that was more his point than saying specifically that there were people out there saying "Kathryn Bigelow made it, so sexism in Hollywood is dead!"

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Ahhhhh....it's been a while since I listened to that episode, and I was having a hard time placing what he said about stupid people and Kathryn Bigelow. I was trying to figure out when he said people that liked Kathryn Bigelow were stupid, but this is a totally different statement, and I remember it now that you helped clarify. And I don't know if he was saying that people say exactly that, but there are a lot of people that will point to a token person whenever someone brings up diversity, whether it's about women, people of color, or GLBT actors/directors/whatever. And I think that was more his point than saying specifically that there were people out there saying "Kathryn Bigelow made it, so sexism in Hollywood is dead!"

 

He was probably being specific about women directors *and* making the wider point. The women directors bit because Lexi Alexander is the (female) director of Punisher: War Zone and the only woman I think who's directed a Marvel movie; and the wider bit because yes it's what a lot of people say to try and pretend there's no discrimination or imbalance towards a given group.

 

By the way, Lexi Alexander is AWESOME and should get to direct more stuff.

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On your link to the Trever Noah scandal - while the article is spot on about the way Patton Oswalt defended Trever Noah being bullshit, I would like to say that Trever himself made no special pleading satire defence about those jokes, he just admitted they hadn't worked. If there is a defence of the fella it's that growing up as a mixed race boy in apartheid South Africa in which his very existence was a crime he probably has a different view on how thick skinned people should be and will no doubt have learned from the experience.

Hey! You actually read the article! :) I agree with what you said about Noah. The way he handled the affair was great. That thing would've blown over quicker had Patton Oswalt not come to his "defence".

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Confession: with the exception of a few titles, I've always been more of a DC guy (partly because Batman's been my jam since I was about 6 years old, and partly because I don't like a certain mustachioed former Marvel president that everyone seems to think is the fucking messiah).

 

But now I feel like I need to go read the Matt Fraction Hawkeye stuff because y'all have made it sound pretty great.

Batman is the shit so that's understandable. Batman is also the only DC property I've read (and I've read a ton of Batman). So if you've got some good suggestions I will take them!

 

Please do read Hawkeye! It's straight up amazing, bro.

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Mind you, who would believe that Alan Thicke might have a son who was a cocky smug little bellend who thinks he's God's gift to women?

As opposed to his fictional son, the one that thinks he's God's gift TO US ALL! Jeez, one's a shitty musician, while the other is a shitty actor/filmmaker. If put in a "Sophie's Choice"-style dilemma, how can he possibly decide which one has to keep on living?

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