Episode 166 - Timecop: LIVE!

[Quasar Sniffer 4174]

The issue of killing JCVD as a child in order to prevent him from ever even being a candidate to join the TEC was brought up, similar to the "go back in time to kill Baby Hitler" scenario. This kind of thinking always has bothered me, even in regards to Killing Baby Hitler. The issue of thinking you can accomplish an overall good by murdering an infant notwithstanding, who knows what chaos you will create by killing a historical figure at that young an age? If you kill Hitler, as per this example, before he reaches his first birthday, who's to say that some other disaffected, ludicrously antisemitic World War One veteran wouldn't rise up through the ranks of the National Socialist Party and lead Germany to genocide and war? Or, failing that, another country in Europe, like France, with a history of fierce antisemitism (see: The Dreyfus Affair), could have a fascist revolution and a Holocaust all its own. Maybe the German Communist Party, whom the Nazis battled fiercely before Hitler was made chancellor, takes over Germany in the 1930s and allies with the Soviet Union and that Hypothetical Axis commits its own series of genocides across Europe and Asia because, hell, Stalin murdered tens of millions of his own people, including many Jews, so why not citizens of territories he conquered? I'm not saying Hitler ISN'T history's greatest monster, all I'm saying is, if we had the ability to time travel, maybe we could put that technology to better use to solving the world's ills than pulling a King Herod and murdering babies before they commit any sort of malfeasance besides, I dunno, biting too hard white nursing.

 

We face the same set of logical obstacles with going back to kill baby JCVD to prevent him from joining the, or even being aware of, the TEC... though with not as apocalyptic consequences as affecting the outcome of WWII. Obviously, a villain as dastardly as Donald Trump Ron Silva has no compunction about time traveling for personal gain. Hell, he probably prefers any sort of trip through time that involves murder. He's like someone planning a four hour layover in Austin, Texas so he or she can grab some barbecue on the way from New York to LA, only Silva is making excuses to machine gun Confederate soldiers while robbing gold. Though, if he helped the Union win the Civil War, maybe he's not all bad?

 

ANYWAY, if Silva goes back to kill Baby JCVD and accomplishes his Murder Mission, what's preventing the nascent TEC, 30 years later, from recruiting another, maybe even more competent cop, for its time-copping police force? Maybe one who isn't so confused by time-travel or terrible at investigating crimes? Sure, that cop would probably not have the sweet buns or awesome high kicks as Jean-Claude, and that cop CERTAINLY wouldn't have those tantalizing splits, but the TEC would still exist without him. Maybe a better option would be to kill that cadre of secret agents we see brief the Senate committee in the opening scene or even that doctor who invented time travel. But then you run the risk of time travel never being invented (or at least being available to you). Then you'd never be able to go back in time to commit murder to facilitate your plans of going back in time to commit robbery to fund a presidential campaign.... guys, it's almost as if the logic of TimeCop doesn't hold up. And I wouldn't have it any other way <3

[tstone1227 10]

Guys, I figured it out.

 

At first, I was like, my God this movie makes no sense and is full of time-travel paradoxes (paradoci?). But then I sat down and spent several hours (paid, at work) thinking about it more closely, and I think I have come up with a coherent time-map of the movie that makes sense. Obviously this must have been what the producers were working with. It is included in the post below, here is a link to it as well: http://i.imgur.com/tMyRAV4.png. Events in the timelines are in text boxes, and time-travel events are represented by stars. The main JCVD time-travel events are colored red, and numbered according to the order in which they appear in the movie. The non-linear movie chronology is represented by the bold arrows. The map assumes that time-travelers are able to jump between distinct timelines, both in traveling forward and backward in time. We also assume that when a time-traveler arrives in the future, no matter what timeline, he or she immediately inhabits the body of whatever future self exists in that timeline, a la Chunkstyle's comment above.

 

This map shows that there are four distinct linear timelines. The main fork in the timelines is whether or not Fielding becomes a TEC agent. In the timeline where she does not become an agent, Future actor/activist Ron Silva appears in 1994 from an alternate future to kill his partner in technology and mortally wound Fielding, who has also come with JCVD from the same alternate future as Future Silva. Thus, Silva becomes rich, and coincidentally little girl Fielding never grows up to become a TEC agent (this has nothing to do with the fact that alternate-future Fielding was wounded in this timeline, of course; it just means that her past self in this timeline decides not to become a TEC agent). This is the timeline that JCVD visits briefly in 2004, where the nerdy porn guy is wearing a sport jacket and his boss doesn't know that JCVD likes his wife's succotash or whatever. This no-Fielding timeline splits in 2004; in one parallel timeline, JCVD manages to go back to 1994 again to try and steal Fielding's blood; in another, JCVD never makes it out of the launch room and his absence in 1994 spawns the events that lead to his wife's death.

 

The other main parent timeline is the one where Fielding grows up to be a TEC agent. In this timeline, when JCVD and Fielding return from the future to the chip company in 1994, they manage to prevent Silva from meeting his past self. This all happens off camera. Thus, past Silva still sells his share in the lucrative cold-tech chip company, and in 2004 will be low on campaign cash necessitating his trip to the past to kill his chip-making partner. However, Future Fielding is still injured in 1994 in this timeline, prompting Future Silva to send Hoop-Earring Goon and Company back to finish Fielding and take out JCVD.

 

This main parent timeline then further splits in two. One split is the fork we see at the beginning of the movie, when the goons follow JCVD home from the mall and blow up his house with Mia Sara inside it. This is the timeline where Future JCVD failed to make it out of the launch room in 2004, thus leading to the death of his wife in 1994. JCVD becomes a grizzled TEC agent, and since Future Silva never managed to kill his chip partner in this timeline, the actor/activist is broke and needs to engage in time shenanigans to make money for his campaign. JCVD becomes suspicious and goes back in time with Fielding to engage Silva. No one ever returns to this timeline's future.

 

The other fork is what we see at the end of the movie, when 2004 JCVD comes back to steal Fielding's blood but gets distracted by Sara's blood instead. Then JCVD kills both 1994 Silva and 2004 Silva, and saves Mia Sara's life. In this timeline JCVD becomes a happy, fulfilled TEC agent and has a child. In 2004, Future JCVD returns to this timeline from 1994 after saving his past self and his wife. His consciousness inhabits the body of his past self at that moment (note the clean shave). Then he goes home to be startled by the fact that his son is developmentally disabled.

 

PUT

 

A

 

 

BRA

 

 

ON

 

 

IT!!!!

 

EDIT: This doea not explain why the house is intact at the end of the movie, but I think we can safely assume master architect Mia Sara had it fully restored. More importantly, the map does not explain why Future Silva got a scar on his face as soon as Past Silva was cut, since those two Silvas are actually from distinct timelines. In that scene Future Silva is from Timeline 2 (reading left to right on the map), while that Past Silva is from Timeline 4 (the no-Fielding timeline). The map can't explain this magic scar.

 

[RickBTenPercent 3]

Hello, first time posting here. I was aware of this film but not watched it until now: It’s cobblers.

 

1. All the schemes to be rich are massively overly complex. Compound interest over a few centuries is much easier. Just make a bank deposit in the bank of England in the 17th century. Bingo, you are a billionaire. You don’t even have to read Piketty.

 

2. Gloria Reuben was shot twice in the upper body, but I agree with June, she was pretty well much dead.

 

3. Splits: I suggest it is the other way around, not that JCVD is being contracted to do splits and is not keen, instead he is always trying to crow bar in splits to any and all of his movies, See the making of Predator.

 

Joel and I were walking down the hallway of the hotel together and Jean-Claude was walking toward us with his assistant. And Jean-Claude walked up and said, "Are you Joel Silver?" And he said yeah. And Jean said, "Well look at this!" And he jumped up in the air, I swear to God, did the splits with his legs straight out and his crotch was at eye level — and I'm 6 feet tall. He was there to play the creature, and a company called Boss had designed a creature. It had the head of an ant. And they spent an absolute fortune on this. And so they brought Jean-Claude out and they put the head on Jean-Claude, and Jean-Claude stood up and freaked out, and took off this $20,000 head and threw it on the ground and it shattered. And Joel said, "What the f— are you doing!" And he told Jean-Claude, "You'll never work in Hollywood again! Get off my set!" So that was it. [The "He broke the creature head" version.]

 

This bodes ill for June if HDTGM do further JVCD movies (and hey if they must, Universal Soldier, it has Dolph Lundgren too and is by the director of Independence Day and disaster fan Roland Emmerich but... the franchise has been going so long Peter Hyams’ -director of Timecop- son is directing the last few and Peter was DoP for one).

 

4. Hyams also made an adaptation of Ray Bradbury’s A Sound of Thunder which also had some...um, shall we say... debatable time travel plotting.

 

And finally, a still from Psychomania in the hope it tickles the fancy of HDTGM enough to do it (yes I’ll put a suggestion in the proper thread too, but hey, pagan/satanic magic reanimates biker gang to wreak terror in English village to psychedelic soundtrack!)

[Cameron H. 23786]

The issue of killing JCVD as a child in order to prevent him from ever even being a candidate to join the TEC was brought up, similar to the "go back in time to kill Baby Hitler" scenario. This kind of thinking always has bothered me, even in regards to Killing Baby Hitler. The issue of thinking you can accomplish an overall good by murdering an infant notwithstanding, who knows what chaos you will create by killing a historical figure at that young an age? If you kill Hitler, as per this example, before he reaches his first birthday, who's to say that some other disaffected, ludicrously antisemitic World War One veteran wouldn't rise up through the ranks of the National Socialist Party and lead Germany to genocide and war? Or, failing that, another country in Europe, like France, with a history of fierce antisemitism (see: The Dreyfus Affair), could have a fascist revolution and a Holocaust all its own. Maybe the German Communist Party, whom the Nazis battled fiercely before Hitler was made chancellor, takes over Germany in the 1930s and allies with the Soviet Union and that Hypothetical Axis commits its own series of genocides across Europe and Asia because, hell, Stalin murdered tens of millions of his own people, including many Jews, so why not citizens of territories he conquered? I'm not saying Hitler ISN'T history's greatest monster, all I'm saying is, if we had the ability to time travel, maybe we could put that technology to better use to solving the world's ills than pulling a King Herod and murdering babies before they commit any sort of malfeasance besides, I dunno, biting too hard white nursing.

 

We face the same set of logical obstacles with going back to kill baby JCVD to prevent him from joining the, or even being aware of, the TEC... though with not as apocalyptic consequences as affecting the outcome of WWII. Obviously, a villain as dastardly as Donald Trump Ron Silva has no compunction about time traveling for personal gain. Hell, he probably prefers any sort of trip through time that involves murder. He's like someone planning a four hour layover in Austin, Texas so he or she can grab some barbecue on the way from New York to LA, only Silva is making excuses to machine gun Confederate soldiers while robbing gold. Though, if he helped the Union win the Civil War, maybe he's not all bad?

 

ANYWAY, if Silva goes back to kill Baby JCVD and accomplishes his Murder Mission, what's preventing the nascent TEC, 30 years later, from recruiting another, maybe even more competent cop, for its time-copping police force? Maybe one who isn't so confused by time-travel or terrible at investigating crimes? Sure, that cop would probably not have the sweet buns or awesome high kicks as Jean-Claude, and that cop CERTAINLY wouldn't have those tantalizing splits, but the TEC would still exist without him. Maybe a better option would be to kill that cadre of secret agents we see brief the Senate committee in the opening scene or even that doctor who invented time travel. But then you run the risk of time travel never being invented (or at least being available to you). Then you'd never be able to go back in time to commit murder to facilitate your plans of going back in time to commit robbery to fund a presidential campaign.... guys, it's almost as if the logic of TimeCop doesn't hold up. And I wouldn't have it any other way <3

 

The silliest thing about the "can't kill Hitler" thing, as it pertains to this movie, is that by offing Silva, that's essentially what he's doing. At some point, 1994 Silva (or Silva Prime) would have had to independently come up with his brilliant "steal money to become President" scheme - otherwise it just becomes this insipid ouroboros of time travel poppycock. Basically it can't be: I came up with this idea because I gave it to myself, but I can't give it to myself unless I already came up with the idea. Ultimately, what this all means, is that Silva's "destiny" (for lack of a better word) is inextricably linked to Time Travel. When JCVD kills Silva, he is changing the course of future human "history." Or, in other words, killing Silva before he is elected President, an event that - by virtue of his proximity to TEC and his willingness to abuse its power - was something that was supposed to happen, is the equivalent of killing Hitler before he came to power.

 

What's funny is that the movie pulls it's punch in the end, and instead of the horrific unintended consequences the movie warns of, our hero gets a happy ending. That being the case, when JCVD reports for duty tomorrow, there's absolutely no reason for him not to take a quick side trip to late-19th century Austria...

[joel_rosenbaum 1269]

Did anyone else notice how long Max and his former partner were falling during his jumper scene? On first watch, the scene seemed a little long. So I rewatched the scene and counted twelve seconds between their leap out of the window window and the time portal opening up to bring them back to the future. Apparently they would have fallen approximately 1400 feet during that span. Not only did they not hit the ground, Max and his partner had about twenty storeys to spare when the portal opened up. Well, there were no buildings in the world tall enough for them to fall for that long. The closest would be the Chrysler Building, which was ~1000 feet tall. While the Chrysler Building is in New York, it is definitely in Midtown and not on Wall Street.

 

Now the second tallest building in the world at the time was 40 Wall Street, which is obviously on Wall Street and currently goes by a different name that we can preferably not discuss. That building is ~900 feet tall and the top floor lies somewhere below that. No matter how you add it up, neither of these buildings were tall enough for Max and his partner to survive the jump. Even if they had jumped from the apex of the Chrysler Building, those dudes would have been dead for going on three seconds by the time the time portal pulled them through.

 

P.S. There's a fascinating discussion about these exact two buildings on this episode of 99% Invisible.

[Cam Bert 8145]

I wanted to write something about the weird self driving car and weird future guns they were using. Now it's a common problem in sci-fi to have way too advanced technology in the future. Take Back to the Future Part II, they jump 30 years into the future and now you have hoverboards and self tying shoes and hologram Jaws. In 30 years technology does change. A computer in 1977 is very different than one in 2007. Yet Timecop is only a 10 year jump into the future. That's not a long time. Take the iPhone which is 10 years old this year. It is different but is all that different? Also guns and cars are two things that don't change all that rapidly.

 

The more I thought about this and the more I thought about how the chief was unaware JCVD was from a alternate present it got me to thinking. What if there was a mission in which the a timecop when back to stop somebody from doing something in the mid 90s. During this mission something like their futuristic minidisk player was left behind. Said timecop was murdered or stuck in the past and somebody found the minidisk player and through backwards engineering accelerated technological advancement. As the past was changed the events rippled out and they were unaware in the future that they had sent that timecop back so they can't fix the mistake but can then enjoy the new technology. This happens a few times and that's why in ten years you get future guns and self driving cars.

[tomspanks 9039]

P.S. There's a fascinating discussion about these exact two buildings on this episode of 99% Invisible.

 

The Chrysler is one of my favorite buildings in NYC. Love the gargoyles and the story behind the "secret" spire.

[Cam Bert 8145]

 

The Chrysler is one of my favorite buildings in NYC. Love the gargoyles and the story behind the "secret" spire.

"Secret" spire? Like the Brand Building in 9 Lives?

[ChunkStyle 1160]

I wanted to write something about the weird self driving car and weird future guns they were using. Now it's a common problem in sci-fi to have way too advanced technology in the future. Take Back to the Future Part II, they jump 30 years into the future and now you have hoverboards and self tying shoes and hologram Jaws. In 30 years technology does change. A computer in 1977 is very different than one in 2007. Yet Timecop is only a 10 year jump into the future. That's not a long time. Take the iPhone which is 10 years old this year. It is different but is all that different? Also guns and cars are two things that don't change all that rapidly.

 

Here is my personal story of stupidity while watching this movie. For whatever reason the age of this movie didn't make it into my higher brain function. And no amount of 90's mall footage was breaking through. So when the crooked cop pulled out the high tech gun I was just wondering "how'd that guy get such a cool gun?". It wasn't until they showed the self driving car that I finally remembered that 2004 was in the future for the original audience.

[SeveralCircles 426]

i had photoshop open and ready to go and i said "NO!!! ... that's too far .... isn't it? ... yes it is ... but is it though? ... yes it is!!!"

 

the little angel on my shoulder won this time. just about though

 

It was definitely (theoretically) too far.

[JammerLea 2070]

I wanted to write something about the weird self driving car and weird future guns they were using. Now it's a common problem in sci-fi to have way too advanced technology in the future. Take Back to the Future Part II, they jump 30 years into the future and now you have hoverboards and self tying shoes and hologram Jaws. In 30 years technology does change. A computer in 1977 is very different than one in 2007. Yet Timecop is only a 10 year jump into the future. That's not a long time. Take the iPhone which is 10 years old this year. It is different but is all that different? Also guns and cars are two things that don't change all that rapidly.

 

The more I thought about this and the more I thought about how the chief was unaware JCVD was from a alternate present it got me to thinking. What if there was a mission in which the a timecop when back to stop somebody from doing something in the mid 90s. During this mission something like their futuristic minidisk player was left behind. Said timecop was murdered or stuck in the past and somebody found the minidisk player and through backwards engineering accelerated technological advancement. As the past was changed the events rippled out and they were unaware in the future that they had sent that timecop back so they can't fix the mistake but can then enjoy the new technology. This happens a few times and that's why in ten years you get future guns and self driving cars.

So these leftover items would become OOPArts?

I could get behind this, but there's still no excuse for that fugly car. Where did all the designers go?? I thought the turbo car in The Wraith, looked way more futuristic, and that model came out in 1984.

[Cam Bert 8145]

So these leftover items would become OOPArts?

I could get behind this, but there's still no excuse for that fugly car. Where did all the designers go?? I thought the turbo car in The Wraith, looked way more futuristic, and that model came out in 1984.

While I agree about the Wraith car, maybe it's just a prototype whipped up by the creep that watches porn at work. I mean he did invent the Oculus Rift years before it came out.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

I have a lot of notes to get through and I didn't have time to write them out this weekend, which is lame, but I'm gonna go through them today lol.

 

One of the things I wrote down a lot is that I had no idea that it was supposed to be 2004 for the longest time. Many times did I actually write, "Wait, what fuckin year is it?" and even went as far as to think that it was supposed to be 2020, because that at least makes sense for the amount of stuff that changes. Like Cam Bert said above, ten years is nothing in terms of going from 94 technology to laser guns and crazy self driving cars. 2004 was a ridiculous year and I wonder if just having a ten year old kid at the end was literally their only motivation for setting it a decade later.

[NaughtyByNurture 15]

OK so in the movie we learn that time travel exists and that the Time Enforcement Commission police force is tasked with regulating it. While the only people we see in this organization in the movie are the cops and one programmer, they must employ a HUGE staff of historians working countless hours at libraries, archives, and universities.

 

Just taking the New York City stock market scam as an example – the historic records of the New York Stock Exchange are at the New York Public Library in the Financial Services Resources Collection. This collection includes 44 different record groups, with tens of boxes of records in each group. So to investigate JCVD’s partner you would need at least one person, but more likely a team of people, pouring over all of this content, which isn’t digitized so you couldn’t word search it or research remotely. Plus it is very unlikely that these records would even contain individual stock sales. You’d have to hope that a newspaper took note of someone buying rather than selling in ’29 and wrote an article on it. But that would be in a whole other collection.

 

So from this stock market example we know for sure they are employing experts on 20^th century financial history. And from the opening scene in George in 1863, we know they have 19^th century military historians on staff. But they would also have to have countless experts in every period of American history, plus experts in pre-American colonial history (which would require knowledge of Native tribes and English, French, Spanish, and Dutch colonials), and experts in pre-contact history, which is terribly difficult to know because there is no surviving written record. (And even if there were, many of those languages are dead!) Also in this movie they show that people can travel not only through time, but also through space. So they need people who are experts in GLOBAL history since the DAWN of time.

 

It’s also worth noting that despite doing all the heavy lifting, the historians on staff are clearly not very high up in the organization, or at least they aren’t involved with Time Cop hiring, because if they were then rookie-cop Sarah Fielding, a woman of color, would not be approved to travel in time. It would be incredibly dangerous for her to travel to almost any place or time in American history before the 1980s.

 

It’s almost as if the logic of Time Cop is flawed...

[SeanMatthewLeary 37]

May luck be on your side, good sir.

 

Okay, after chatting with JammerLea this is our best attempt at a 'simple' explanation of the timelines in Time Cop.

 

This 'solves' the issue with the house blowing up but then still being there, the kid showing up and JCVD not knowing him, etc etc.

 

Also, we re-watched the scene with the boss 'not knowing' JCVD, but he does know him, the tech guy even calls him by name. But it does seem to be bad writing in order to illustrate the fact that time has changed. He knows him, but he thinks he is crazy because JCVD is disagreeing with the past the boss knows. So, the lines about him being a 'friend' etc seem to try and illustrate that but do a bad job with it. We originally thought it to be a timeline where JCVD never became a TimeCop explaining why the boss doesn't know him, but that's likely not the case.

[Cameron H. 23786]

I just finished the episode, and I have to say, this might just be one of my favorites. Not only were Paul, Jason, June, and Nick all in top form, but the Austin crowd was amazing! Everyone killed it!

[tomspanks 9039]

"Secret" spire? Like the Brand Building in 9 Lives?

 

Exactly like this.

[JammerLea 2070]

One of the things I wrote down a lot is that I had no idea that it was supposed to be 2004 for the longest time. Many times did I actually write, "Wait, what fuckin year is it?" and even went as far as to think that it was supposed to be 2020, because that at least makes sense for the amount of stuff that changes. Like Cam Bert said above, ten years is nothing in terms of going from 94 technology to laser guns and crazy self driving cars. 2004 was a ridiculous year and I wonder if just having a ten year old kid at the end was literally their only motivation for setting it a decade later.

 

I think it's definitely just for the reason that they wanted the kid to be 10 years old. I was wondering if they might've been able to pull it off if instead they set the beginning in 2004 and then the future in 2014, but the answer is still a big fat NO. Back to the Future Part II was a least little bit better at suspending disbelief with the 20 year gap, even though it was still wrong.

 

I have a section in my notes that is just

 

What is this toy car?

"Capable of eating his young"

Srsly these cars

Nothing besides the cars looks updated. "Play tape" lol

 

I guess the cars just make me really angry from an artistic standpoint.

[Cameron H. 23786]

2004 was a ridiculous year and I wonder if just having a ten year old kid at the end was literally their only motivation for setting it a decade later.

 

I actually don't think this is too far off. At some point they decided that his wife dying wasn't tragic enough and that she should be pregnant, too. Once that was decided, then they had to do some math. I think 10 years old is the last age they could have made that kid and it still be a cute/happy ending. Any older and you're getting into teenager territory and it wouldn't be much fun for him to return and find his son, this kid he doesn't even know, all goth'd out and flipping him off as he drives off to go do some grave rubbings and recite "Annabel Lee" down at the the local cemetery.

 

 

"Thanks for saving my 'life,' dad."

 

 

 

[tstone1227 10]

 

Okay, after chatting with JammerLea this is our best attempt at a 'simple' explanation of the timelines in Time Cop.

 

This 'solves' the issue with the house blowing up but then still being there, the kid showing up and JCVD not knowing him, etc etc.

 

 

 

Guys, guys, chill, I got this.

 

First of all, there doesn't need to be a timeline where JCVD's house doesn't blow up (although, of course, there is such a timeline, just as there is a timeline where everything is exactly the same except Ron Silva is just an actor and not an activist, or one where Future JCVD's mullet has one more inch of party in the back, etc etc - it's just that we don't need those timelines to explain the events of the film). The great irony is that Silva sending those goons in the first place was his own undoing (at least in one of the timelines) - it was that event which led JCVD to become a grizzled TEC agent, eventually setting him on the path to uncovering Silva's plot and creating Timeline 1a in which Silva dissapears in 1994.

 

Secondly, the house existing in 2004 Timeline 1a even though it was destroyed in 1994 Timeline 1a is simply due to the fact that master architect Mia Sara had it rebuilt. She had 10 years and The Timeline 1a happy TEC agent JCVD had plenty of government income to make it happen.

 

Thirdly, the reason 2004 Timeline 1a JCVD doesn't recognize his kid is because that is actually the consciousness of 2004 Timeline 1b JCVD implanted in the body of 2004 Timeline 1a JCVD (note the clean shave). Indeed, whenever TEC agents "return to the present", if they happen to return to the present in an alternate timeline they unfortunately supplant the consciousness of whoever or whatever is their equivalent time-replica is in that timeline.

 

Some more explanation:

 

According to my replica of the director's original time-map for this movie (see below or here: http://imgur.com/JkzMJX8), the JCVD we see at the beginning of the film is the JCVD from Timeline 1b. The goons that kill Mia Sara in Timeline 1b were sent from 2004 in Timeline 2, the timeline in which Sarah Fielding is not a TEC agent and in which Silva is rich. He is rich in Timeline 2 because 2004 Silva from Timeline 1b went back to 1994 Timeline 2 to kill his tech partner and gain control of the cryo-chip company.

 

The key potential paradoxes (paradoci? I need some clarification here people) that this map unravels are the following:

 

1) Silva's goons kill both Fielding and Mia Sara in one trip. So that means that Fielding was injured at the cryo-chip plant, which means Silva is the sole owner of the cryo-chip patent and is rich, which means that Silva doesn't need to send goons back to kill the cryo-chip partner, which means Fielding is not injured, which means that the goons never come back to kill Mia Sara at the beginning of the movie!

 

2) Fielding is killed in 1994, but it is the FUTURE Fielding that is killed. Presumably there is still a 16-year-old Fielding in that time, macking it with Bobby or whatever, who grows up in 10 years to become TEC Agent Fielding. So why, when JCVD returns to 2004, are there no records of Fielding ever having existed? That is to say, killing a person FROM THE FUTURE in the past does not erase their existence - you would have to kill their PAST self to accomplish that.

 

The map solves (1) by realizing that, off-camera, the first event in Timeline 1 is one where Fielding and JCVD go back in time from 2004 Timeline 1b and manage to thwart 2004 Timeline 1b Silva, preventing him from killing his chip-partner and meeting his past self. Thus, Timeline 1 Silva goes to his meeting in 1994 having never met his future self and naively agrees to oversee the TEC as a broke-ass junior senator. However, the goons still need to come back and blow up Mia Sara's mansion, so obviously 2004 Timeline 1b Fielding is still injured in 1994 Timeline 1, necessitating the arrival of the goons. So the goons still come and kill Mia Sara, but Silva is still poor in 2004 Timeline 1b.

 

We can also resolve (2) quite easily by positing a Timeline 2 in which Fielding never becomes a TEC agent. This is the timeline in which 2004 Timeline 1b Silva manages to kill his chip-partner in 1994 and becomes rich. Timeline 2 is also the timeline to which Timeline 1b JCVD returns briefly and realizes that in this timeline he is not best buds with his direct supervisor. There is a fork right at the end of Timeline 2. In Timeline 2b, JCVD doesn't make the launch back to 1994 - presumably the soldiers manage to kill his boss before he can initiate the launch. Thus, Timeline 2b is the reason why JCVD never gets back to 1994 to thwart the goons in Timeline 1b. However, the timeline we see in the movie is Timeline 2a, in which JCVD gets launched to 1994 Timeline 1a, thwarting the goons and executing Silva.

 

One issue that remains unresolved is how 2004 Timeline 1b gets a scar from 1994 Timeline 2 Silva's injury... those are different Silvas!!

 

[Cameron H. 23786]

I was also just about to mention "Tango and Cash" but Cameron beat me to it. (How are you today, Cameron?)

 

I'm fine, Elektra, how are you?

 

 

Sorry, to not asked earlier. I just listened to the episode today and doing my first serious read through of the thread and I just saw this

 

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

^ This one - what kind of a mall has a wall of Ruffles potato chips on display?

 

Also, when that crookety crook is lying on the ground there appears to be a silver bowl for, presumably, dip. Just a big bowl of community onion dip that's been sitting out on display all the live-long day. Tasty.

 

*Sorry for the multiple posts. I'm replying on my phone and I don't have an option to multi-quote.

[firsttimecallerlongtimelistenr 3590]

pretty sure HDTGM said this first

 

http://screenrant.com/fast-furious-9-space-director-comments/

 

“Outer space? Listen, I wouldn’t rule anything with this franchise. When I read submarine I’m like ‘OK, anything’s possible’. [Laughs] You never know. I haven’t read “Dom on Mars” yet but again, you just never know.”

[JammerLea 2070]

Guys, guys, chill, I got this.

 

I kind of disagree. There still has to be one timeline where nothing happens to Mia or House, because nothing was supposed to happen to her or it. It was Silva who put that event in motion because JCVD was becoming a threat in 2004.

 

I think it's more like Silva's goons going back to (unsuccessfully) kill JCVD ends up cancelling out that original timeline from Oct 10th, 1994 on, and then that second timeline replaces the original one.

 

But there's still sooo many questions that are unanswered, especially in your chart as to why Fielding never joined TEC. I was thinking maybe it was that Silva had hired her from the start to infiltrate TEC as a double agent for his money schemes, and then after young Silva killed off the chip company partner, he didn't need to hire these double agents. However, Fielding is still part of TEC in the Silva-less branch, so that theory is incorrect. You could posit the idea that because JCVD gets evidence from injured Fielding in 1994, maybe Silva decided she too was a threat and went after her prior to her applying to TEC, but that doesn't really work either because then there'd be no reason to kill 2004 Fielding in 1994, and JCVD already has her blood evidence anyway (not that he needs it). Ugh... I don't even know what I'm trying to figure out anymore.

 

Seriously, IT'S AS IF THE LOGIC OF TIMECOP IS FLAWED.

 

 

 

 

Also I still don't think it would be a rebuild of the same house. I mean, I guess maybe she could've kept/found the original blue print somewhere, but they really should've given it a fresh coat of paint if they were going for that conclusion.

 

One issue that remains unresolved is how 2004 Timeline 1b gets a scar from 1994 Timeline 2 Silva's injury... those are different Silvas!!

 

I will agree on this, that this moment feels so out of place when JCVD (or his conciousness) is able to stay so separate from the time changes that occur. Pretty sure someone was just like, "Guys, I know how to do this cool special effect!!"

[tomspanks 9039]

Also, when that crookety crook is lying on the ground there appears to be a silver bowl for, presumably, dip. Just a big bowl of community onion dip that's been sitting out on display all the live-long day. Tasty.

 

*Sorry for the multiple posts. I'm replying on my phone and I don't have an option to multi-quote.

 

I think they were bowls of chips!