Episode 213 - Shanghai Surprise (w/ Jordan Rubin)

[tomspanks 9039]

1 hour ago, gigi-tastic said:

I love this one series of communist ones that are of Russia and China. It looks like a delightful story of two comrades falling in love and raising children together.

Look! They love to read together! They have a garden! A family portrait! ( with terrifying children. )

I have a whole bunch of these posters that I got from a flea market and they're simply aMAOzing. 

[Cameron H. 23786]

1 minute ago, taylorannephoto said:

Personally, if I don't want to support Shanghai surprise but I would like to support Madonna, then I'll go out of my way to do something else for her or anyone else ya know? 

Ha! I almost asked if we should all watch A League if Their Own to balance the scales, but I was afraid it would come off snarky and I really didn’t want that.   

But I agree, it really comes down the individual.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

3 hours ago, Cameron H. said:

Ha! I almost asked if we should all watch A League if Their Own to balance the scales, but I was afraid it would come off snarky and I really didn’t want that.   

I wasn't sure if I wanted to admit this but I should own my truth in that I have never actually seen A League of Their Own. I just know everything that happens and feel like I have seen the movie but legit I have not lol.

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

5 hours ago, taylorannephoto said:

But even old work, if paid for, gives money to said abusers. Many artists get royalties or residuals based off of if something airs on television or gets purchased off of iTunes. So this is really a personal decision for everyone, but don't think that just because you're not purchasing something new that you're not still putting money in their pockets.

That contribution seems very minor, though. Like, so minor as to basically not matter or have any real impact on their future career prospects.

But this is also something I very much care about: being able to view and study past works in a medium I love (film). To me that overrides whatever minimal impact an iTunes rental might have on someone's pocketbook.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

5 minutes ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

That contribution seems very minor, though. Like, so minor as to basically not matter or have any real impact on their future career prospects.

But this is also something I very much care about: being able to view and study past works in a medium I love (film). To me that overrides whatever minimal impact an iTunes rental might have on someone's pocketbook.

That's not the point though. I don't care if it's minimal in your personal outlook, but if we're talking about contributing to them then money is indeed a contribution. It may only end up being $0.10 but that's ten cents *I* worked hard for and that's ten cents *I* could instead add to my donation to RAIN or to Planned Parenthood or to literally any other movie that doesn't have an abuser in it. There are millions of them out there.

Again it's your personal decision, but it feels important to me to comment on these lines that we've all drawn up.

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

2 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

That's not the point though. I don't care if it's minimal in your personal outlook, but if we're talking about contributing to them then money is indeed a contribution. It may only end up being $0.10 but that's ten cents *I* worked hard for and that's ten cents *I* could instead add to my donation to RAIN or to Planned Parenthood or to literally any other movie that doesn't have an abuser in it. There are millions of them out there.

Again it's your personal decision, but it feels important to me to comment on these lines that we've all drawn up.

Yes, I have given it a lot of thought and decided that I'm okay with it. I think that holding a hard line on something like this would ultimately result in closing myself off to too much of popular culture, for the sake of (in my view) a pretty non-impactful boycott. Again, just my own thinking on it, not trying to impose.

I also won't knock anyone who doesn't want to watch it, just based on personal preferences. I only offer my own rationale into the dialogue.

[gigi-tastic 2322]

6 hours ago, taylorannephoto said:

I wasn't sure if I wanted to admit this but I should own my truth in that I have never actually seen A League of Their Own. I just know everything that happens and feel like I have seen the movie but legit I have not lol.

Me either! I know so many people who talk about what an amazing fundamental movie it is/ was for them but somehow I've just never seen it.  I would love to see it with you guys!

[gigi-tastic 2322]

6 hours ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

That contribution seems very minor, though. Like, so minor as to basically not matter or have any real impact on their future career prospects.

But this is also something I very much care about: being able to view and study past works in a medium I love (film). To me that overrides whatever minimal impact an iTunes rental might have on someone's pocketbook.

It's really not about the money for me so much as I feel like when I do buy their stuff (even older stuff in some people's case) it's like I'm saying " I support you and I don't care what you did. " That's not always how I feel and it definitely depends on the context. Also sometimes it honestly upsets me to see them as someone who has a good number of people in my life who have suffered abuse or sexual assault. That's just me though and in general I take it case by case .

[taylor anne photo 11311]

8 hours ago, gigi-tastic said:

It's really not about the money for me so much as I feel like when I do buy their stuff (even older stuff in some people's case) it's like I'm saying " I support you and I don't care what you did. "

I think this is what I was trying to get to. It doesn't matter how much it is to me because it's still a message of support and I am actively choosing to contribute something to them, and that's not something that sits right with me.

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

11 hours ago, gigi-tastic said:

It's really not about the money for me so much as I feel like when I do buy their stuff (even older stuff in some people's case) it's like I'm saying " I support you and I don't care what you did. " That's not always how I feel and it definitely depends on the context. Also sometimes it honestly upsets me to see them as someone who has a good number of people in my life who have suffered abuse or sexual assault. That's just me though and in general I take it case by case .

Right, if it's just that you personally don't feel good seeing this person on screen or paying money to see them or whatever, then that's fine. I don't share that feeling, but I understand.

I bristle when the argument becomes: "I'm not supporting this person, AND YOU SHOULDN'T EITHER because you are enabling them!" I just don't find that very convincing when you're talking about a $4 rental of an old movie.

[gigi-tastic 2322]

2 minutes ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

Right, if it's just that you personally don't feel good seeing this person on screen or paying money to see them or whatever, then that's fine. I don't share that feeling, but I understand.

I bristle when the argument becomes: "I'm not supporting this person, AND YOU SHOULDN'T EITHER because you are enabling them!" I just don't find that very convincing when you're talking about a $4 rental of an old movie.

Oh totally. I think it's a very personal choice and I don't blame anyone for what they decide. I try to live my life by this great Amy Poehler quote from her book Yes Please. "Good for you, Not for me". It works for most things and I've found that I'm genuinely happier because of it. 

[grudlian. 4725]

26 minutes ago, sycasey 2.0 said:

Right, if it's just that you personally don't feel good seeing this person on screen or paying money to see them or whatever, then that's fine. I don't share that feeling, but I understand.

I bristle when the argument becomes: "I'm not supporting this person, AND YOU SHOULDN'T EITHER because you are enabling them!" I just don't find that very convincing when you're talking about a $4 rental of an old movie.

I think the argument of "how dare you support ____________!" kind of went out the window a few years ago. When people naively thought it was just Roman Polanski and Woody Allen, it was a lot easier to feign moral superiority for abstaining from a movie. Now that we're aware that abuse and molestation are rampant, you'd need to skip virtually every movie. Anyone who tries to guilt me over a movie needs to provide me with a list of their last 10 watches because I'll find someone guilty of something awful.

We all have different lines of acceptability. I have the celebrities I won't support anymore. You have the celebrities you won't support. I won't shame you for watching a celebrity I don't support if you won't shame me.

[theworstbuddhist 572]

To paraphrase the late Harlan Ellison, buying a book or a movie ticket doesn't give you the right to do any more than read the book or watch the movie. If you also want that price to guarantee that everyone involved in its production fits your moral code, whatever that might be, prepare for the price of everything to go up substantially. And while you're at it, apply the same rigor to, say, Facebook, which lots of people still seem to be on but is arguably a much bigger danger to the world than anything done by any celebrity who isn't named Trump. Or hell, the so-called church of Scientology. And lots of other so-called churches, lobbies and so on.

As others are essentially saying, you gotta do you. Everyone does, after all. Why we suddenly feel the need to argue about the moral merits of the same few dozen celebrities, I can't imagine. They're symbols, I suppose, of particular social ills that we wish would go away. But they are also just human beings like everyone else. I dearly love Audrey Hepburn, but she sure as hell wasn't perfect. No one is. I like to think, as someone who is also far from perfect and who also makes art and sells it to people sometimes, that the art is often where a flawed person can be their best selves, and try to express their ideas and feelings where otherwise perhaps they can't.

I guess my point is, if you want to battle the evil in your world, artists of any type are probably already on your side, even if they are shitty people. You can concentrate on actual enemies like, say, your rapist "president" and his oligarch masters first.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

6 minutes ago, theworstbuddhist said:

I guess my point is, if you want to battle the evil in your world, artists of any type are probably already on your side, even if they are shitty people. You can concentrate on actual enemies like, say, your rapist "president" and his oligarch masters first.

There's a difference between "shitty people" and an actor that was accused of beating his girlfriend, or say a director that was convicted of raping a 13 year old girl and fled the country to avoid sentencing, or say a producer that raped multiple women over decades.

Also... it's almost as if we can concentrate on multiple issues at once...

[theworstbuddhist 572]

2 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

There's a difference between "shitty people" and an actor that was accused of beating his girlfriend, or say a director that was convicted of raping a 13 year old girl and fled the country to avoid sentencing, or say a producer that raped multiple women over decades.

Also... it's almost as if we can concentrate on multiple issues at once...

Just curious, what do you think you're accomplishing here, rhetorically speaking? Are you trying to imply that I don't think rape is bad? You feel my phrase that you called out is insufficient to cover the actions of some in Hollywood who are criminals? I disagree. Rapists and abusers are absolutely shitty people.

So what's your purpose here, apart from trying to reassert some kind of weird alpha-poster dominance with your hair-splitting and your "impressive" signature? I have neither the time nor patience for this. If you just want to put words in my mouth or nitpick to serve your own agenda, kindly don't bother replying next time, or just mute me, as I certainly plan to do with you.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

11 hours ago, theworstbuddhist said:

Just curious, what do you think you're accomplishing here, rhetorically speaking? Are you trying to imply that I don't think rape is bad? You feel my phrase that you called out is insufficient to cover the actions of some in Hollywood who are criminals? I disagree. Rapists and abusers are absolutely shitty people.

So what's your purpose here, apart from trying to reassert some kind of weird alpha-poster dominance with your hair-splitting and your "impressive" signature? I have neither the time nor patience for this. If you just want to put words in my mouth or nitpick to serve your own agenda, kindly don't bother replying next time, or just mute me, as I certainly plan to do with you.

You know what you were inferring with that statement. I quoted everything you said back at you so there's literally no putting any words into your mouth. You literally stated that even shitty artists can be on our side and to instead concentrate on "actual" enemies. I pointed out the difference between just "shitty" and physical abuse and that those artists are in fact not on the right fucking side. If you want so badly to dodge being called out then fine, but don't try and act like you weren't doing what you literally did.

But yeah you're sooo right, I'm just trying to be number one here instead of being absolutely fucking triggered by this whole fucking conversation and try and keep my god damn cool and listen to literally everyone's point of view in the most civil way possible and then call out some total fucking bull shit when it happens. But it seems like if you plan on muting me (eye roll) then you won't even see this so this is mainly for myself because lmao what the fuck ever.

Actually maybe this is just the right time to say I'm fucking leaving. This place used to be a literal safe haven (no pun intended considering they covered that movie) and now it's a god damn dumpster fire.

I hope everyone feels the absolute joy of my departure that they seem to be clamoring for since I'm so fucking hated by the whole god damn fanbase for my favorite fucking podcast.

[Cameron H. 23786]

31 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

Actually maybe this is just the right time to say I'm fucking leaving.

Well, this sucks. It’s my birthday this weekend. Please stay.  

[grudlian. 4725]

3 minutes ago, Cameron H. said:

Well, this sucks. It’s my birthday this weekend. Please stay.  

If you feel this place is unwelcoming or if dipshits from reddit are talking shit, I understand why you want to leave. But, as Cameron said, please stay. 

[Cameron H. 23786]

5 hours ago, grudlian. said:

If you feel this place is unwelcoming or if dipshits from reddit are talking shit, I understand why you want to leave. But, as Cameron said, please stay. 

Honestly, I think the biggest problem in the world right now is everyone is on the defensive - all day everyday. And I’m not saying that it’s not for a good reason. In the last two years, the world’s just gotten angry. It’s to the point that even people that are ideologically the same end up getting angry at one another when we should be lifting each other up. I know I’ve certainly been guilty of it - more than once.

That being said, I believe in the inherent goodness of this community. I’m not willing to give up on it yet. We are all good people here. I’m tired of the negativity in the world. I can’t change the world, but I can change my attitude. So that’s what I will keep trying to do.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

6 hours ago, Cameron H. said:

Well, this sucks. It’s my birthday this weekend. Please stay.  

 

6 hours ago, grudlian. said:

If you feel this place is unwelcoming or if dipshits from reddit are talking shit, I understand why you want to leave. But, as Cameron said, please stay. 

I appreciate these, and I do regret saying that this place is a dumpster fire now because ultimately that's not true. However, things have been feeling different lately, and considering the things that have been said towards me in these kind of instances it leads me to believe that I am part of the problem here. So I think it's just best for everyone, mainly myself, that I take an extremely extended hiatus from the forums.

[Cameron H. 23786]

11 minutes ago, taylorannephoto said:

 

I appreciate these, and I do regret saying that this place is a dumpster fire now because ultimately that's not true. However, things have been feeling different lately, and considering the things that have been said towards me in these kind of instances it leads me to believe that I am part of the problem here. So I think it's just best for everyone, mainly myself, that I take an extremely extended hiatus from the forums.

I totally understand. We will miss you and will be here whenever you are ready. 

[WatchOutForSnakes 807]

Imma take @taylorannephoto's side here. I have been slow to pitch in on how I feel about contributing to rapists/abusers. It's perfectly fine to draw the line that says, "I don't want to contribute one dime" to people who abuse women. Sure, there are levels of awfulness, and there are tons of people involved in the production of any single movie who could be awful; but its an order of magnitude worse when the awful person is the lead actor, director, producer, etc. When the main person or people responsible for the film are still in the industry and still making money, and still getting residuals, no mater how minimal, your money is still going into their coffers. Tayloranne wasn't saying that you should live by her standards, or anyone else's standards, but own the fact that your money is still contributing. And when these movies are covered by podcasts like HDTGM, if all the listeners, even if the money isn't much, it still evidences an audience exists that is okay with contributing and watching these people's work. 

No, we can't rid the arts of sexist assholes who actively and systematically abuse women. But we can make a statement that it is not okay. And we can do that by avoiding the art that triggers us. When it comes to past works, it's clearly a very personal determination of what your moral compass tells you. (I personally, watched Shanghai Surprise, because it was free on Vudu, but I couldn't see Sean Penn without my mind constantly thinking of his history with Madonna, specifically.) Going forward, we can, and should, hold people to a higher standard and refuse to see movies when the people responsible for them are awful, horrible, terrible people. The whole problem up to the #metoo movement, has been that everyone has looked the other way. We aren't anymore. 

I really appreciate your opinion and contributions @taylorannephoto. I wish this place didn't feel triggering for you. I think most regular contributors here are open minded and on your/our side. But I see how some of it turned specifically toward you, and I think unnecessarily so. You never make it personal, fuck those who make it personal against you. I hope you stay. 

[DeathToMikeyBay 130]

Whoah. I was reading a review of the new Alladin remake while listening to this episode. At the exact moment I start reading a comment on the new voice for the animated parrot compared to Gilbert Gottfried in the cartoon, Jason remarks on being the voice for an animated parrot in John Wick.

Whoah