Musical Mondays - Week 14 - Phantom of the Paradise

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

I just love that this was made in an era where someone who looks like Paul Williams (AKA someone's nana who lives under a bridge asking travelers riddles) could be a heart-throb leading man. You go, Paul.

[Cameron H. 23786]

I just love that this was made in an era where someone who looks like Paul Williams (AKA someone's nana who lives under a bridge asking travelers riddles) could be a heart-throb leading man. You go, Paul.

 

I take offense, sir! My Nana only lived under a bridge for a brief period during the early Eighties while she was dealing with her crippling macrame addiction. And what's wrong with riddles? She liked riddles. She also liked collecting jewelry and challenging Hobbits to games of wit. Nothing wrong with that. It's not illegal!

[Cameron H. 23786]

Just by chance, as I was listening to music today, the song "Out in the Country" came on. This is notable as it was written by The Phantom of Paradise's own Paul Williams. It's an okay song. Although it does include the lyric, "Before the sun is just a bright spot in the night-time," which makes me believe that Paul Williams doesn't really understand how the sun works...

 

[tomspanks 9039]

Just by chance, as I was listening to music today, the song "Out in the Country" came on. This is notable as it was written by The Phantom of Paradise's own Paul Williams. It's an okay song. Although it does include the lyric, "Before the sun is just a bright spot in the night-time," which makes me believe that Paul Williams doesn't really understand how the sun works...

 

Could he be referring to moonlight? It's technically light from the sun...

I don't know, that line makes little sense.

[tomspanks 9039]

This lyric in "The Hell of It": Good for nothin' bad in bed nobody likes you and you're better off dead goodbye

 

For a while I thought it was "Good for nothin', BACK TO BED, nobody likes you..."

Like, nobody likes you, so why bother getting out of bed in the morning. Just stay in bed all day. But apparently nobody likes you because you're bad in bed.

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

Could he be referring to moonlight? It's technically light from the sun...

I don't know, that line makes little sense.

 

Well, I was trying to look at it in context to the line preceding it, which is, "Before the breathing air is gone" so I think it's about pollution or something. But that doesn't really make sense either. Like, maybe he's saying the smog will be so thick that it will make the sun seem like "a bright spot in the night-time?" However, if that's what he's trying to say, he's certainly taking the scenic route to get there...

[Cameron H. 23786]

This lyric in "The Hell of It": Good for nothin' bad in bed nobody likes you and you're better off dead goodbye

 

For a while I thought it was "Good for nothin', BACK TO BED, nobody likes you..."

Like, nobody likes you, so why bother getting out of bed in the morning. Just stay in bed all day. But apparently nobody likes you because you're bad in bed.

 

Can you imagine being so bad in bed that NOBODY liked you???

[tomspanks 9039]

Can you imagine being so bad in bed that NOBODY liked you???

 

So spectacularly bad that people think you're better off dead!

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

 

So spectacularly bad that people think you're better off dead!

 

I know! And it's everyone! Strangers on the street, who have only just heard rumors of how epically bad in bed you are (or somehow just know it by looking at you), want you to fucking die because of how uncoordinated and dumb you are at sex. Sad. But that's the world we live in now, I guess.

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

Here's something: the ENTIRE plot of this movie is predicated on Swan searching for 'something' to open the Paradise, which it seems is months away and is really important to him that he open it with the perfect thing. He auditions the Juicyfruits off the top looking to see if they fit the bill, but they're dismissed. If he doesn't have something to open the Paradise, there's a problem. Once the Paradise is opened, the big draw is 'Faust', Beef (Meat) and Phoenix, all of which are entirely unknown to Swan when the movie begins. Two big questions: WHY does Winslow wind up in the middle of the audition stage with his messy composer's piano right after the Juicyfruits have performed? Surely he isn't a likely candidate for opening the Paradise given the type of act that the Juicyfruits are. And the fact that Swan identifies, on ten chords, that Winslow's music (minus Winslow) is inspiring enough that he will bank his entire enterprise on it, is craziness. And the second question: if not for this impulsive decision, what would Swan have done to open the Paradise? More to the point, what was the use of cutting Winslow out in the first place? He seemed pretty excited to be involved, and aside from his worry about them miscasting his play, Swan could have worked with Winslow right away and there would have been no need for prison, becoming the Phantom, anyone dying, etc, etc. I think if totally sane Winslow had have been confronted with the casting of Beef, I don't think he'd be throwing neon thunderbolts at him mid-show... Swan works with Winslow later after he's gone crazy and become the Phantom, but if he's so willing then to credit Winslow as the author, why bother cutting him out in the first place?

[Cam Bert 8145]

Here's one thing I don't get, why does Phoenix even show up to the second audition? She went to the first audition and heard about what goes on and is nearly raped by Regis Philbin. So she knows that's what is the ultimate fate of those that work for or want to work for Swan. She seems very unhappy about it at the time, but yet she goes back to the theater to audition for him again? Is she so desperate that she is willing to be raped later on? Maybe she thinks because it's at the Paradise that nothing nefarious can occur, but what about the call back? What if he wants to see how much she really wants it? Doesn't she think about this? It's not like she doesn't know this is Swan's club because that's all people are talking about.

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

Add to that, how well is Regis Philbin doing his job that he allows in-drag Winslow to make it all the way into the orgy room?

 

What did Winslow think would be the result from him showing up in a wig during Swan's champagne room time? Open arms? Dude should have expected to have the snot kicked out of him for that.

[Cam Bert 8145]

What did Winslow think would be the result from him showing up in a wig during Swan's champagne room time? Open arms? Dude should have expected to have the snot kicked out of him for that.

Haha I hadn't thought about that. Clearly he thought he would respect his cunning ruse.

 

No, if Winslow was smart he would have waited for the post coitus cuddling to drop the "Mr. Swan it's me Winslow Leech." I guess it is true, he's bad in bed.

[IMAHUGEHDTGMFAN 1837]

Two big questions: WHY does Winslow wind up in the middle of the audition stage with his messy composer's piano right after the Juicyfruits have performed? Surely he isn't a likely candidate for opening the Paradise given the type of act that the Juicyfruits are. And the fact that Swan identifies, on ten chords, that Winslow's music (minus Winslow) is inspiring enough that he will bank his entire enterprise on it, is craziness. And the second question: if not for this impulsive decision, what would Swan have done to open the Paradise? More to the point, what was the use of cutting Winslow out in the first place? He seemed pretty excited to be involved, and aside from his worry about them miscasting his play, Swan could have worked with Winslow right away and there would have been no need for prison, becoming the Phantom, anyone dying, etc, etc. I think if totally sane Winslow had have been confronted with the casting of Beef, I don't think he'd be throwing neon thunderbolts at him mid-show... Swan works with Winslow later after he's gone crazy and become the Phantom, but if he's so willing then to credit Winslow as the author, why bother cutting him out in the first place?

 

The obvious answer is so that the movie happens but because I also thought of what you are asking while watching I guess Swan's God complex, the way he moves on and disposes people ( Remember that PhilbIn wants revenge on a famous female singer that he helped and Swan says that she will be nothing tomorrow ) and his "I want it, I get it" attitude that has worked for him since he was 14 ( if we believe he opening narration ) and also he has the whole "I made a deal with the Devil for Youth and Power and somehow I can also do that blood contract thing to the Phantom because I want him working for me writing songs instead of blowing up The Paradise" but he gets cocky he double-(or triple or quadruple )-crosses the Phathom by stealing his Cantata Twice, framing him, getting him jailed and de-teethed, not using Phoenix as the lead singer of the paradise, and locking him up permanently (leaving him to die) behind metal and brick in a recording studio... So he botched the last part of that otherwise flawless plan Big Time

 

 

Here's one thing I don't get, why does Phoenix even show up to the second audition? She went to the first audition and heard about what goes on and is nearly raped by Regis Philbin. So she knows that's what is the ultimate fate of those that work for or want to work for Swan. She seems very unhappy about it at the time, but yet she goes back to the theater to audition for him again? Is she so desperate that she is willing to be raped later on? Maybe she thinks because it's at the Paradise that nothing nefarious can occur, but what about the call back? What if he wants to see how much she really wants it? Doesn't she think about this? It's not like she doesn't know this is Swan's club because that's all people are talking about.

 

Same here... And to make matters worse she says that she would "Give anything to get the part" (And she puts her money where her mouth is when he does the Elaine dance, so she is not bluffing )

 

 

Add to that, how well is Regis Philbin doing his job that he allows in-drag Winslow to make it all the way into the orgy room?

What did Winslow think would be the result from him showing up in a wig during Swan's champagne room time?

 

That was a call forward to the 1980 movie "Dressed to Kill" also Written and Directed by Brian De Palma

[Cameron H. 23786]

Here's something: the ENTIRE plot of this movie is predicated on Swan searching for 'something' to open the Paradise, which it seems is months away and is really important to him that he open it with the perfect thing. He auditions the Juicyfruits off the top looking to see if they fit the bill, but they're dismissed. If he doesn't have something to open the Paradise, there's a problem. Once the Paradise is opened, the big draw is 'Faust', Beef (Meat) and Phoenix, all of which are entirely unknown to Swan when the movie begins. Two big questions: WHY does Winslow wind up in the middle of the audition stage with his messy composer's piano right after the Juicyfruits have performed? Surely he isn't a likely candidate for opening the Paradise given the type of act that the Juicyfruits are. And the fact that Swan identifies, on ten chords, that Winslow's music (minus Winslow) is inspiring enough that he will bank his entire enterprise on it, is craziness. And the second question: if not for this impulsive decision, what would Swan have done to open the Paradise? More to the point, what was the use of cutting Winslow out in the first place? He seemed pretty excited to be involved, and aside from his worry about them miscasting his play, Swan could have worked with Winslow right away and there would have been no need for prison, becoming the Phantom, anyone dying, etc, etc. I think if totally sane Winslow had have been confronted with the casting of Beef, I don't think he'd be throwing neon thunderbolts at him mid-show... Swan works with Winslow later after he's gone crazy and become the Phantom, but if he's so willing then to credit Winslow as the author, why bother cutting him out in the first place?

 

I got the impression that Winston was like a sound tech or something (and we all know how terrible theater techs are) and he was checking if the piano was in tune.

 

As for the rest of your points, I have no answer. Like is Winston's weird folk rock really the "next big thing?" How was I not aware of this? Was Jim Croce opening up hot night clubs at the time, too?

[SaraK 1980]

 

Same here... And to make matters worse she says that she would "Give anything to get the part" (And she puts her money where her mouth is when he does the Elaine dance, so she is not bluffing )

 

 

She was really playing with fire when she knew what 'anything' could entail, but immediately rejected the auditioner's advances. I honestly can't tell what her plan is there. Though I liked that she danced off stage and then had to immediately run back. Way to negate that exit.

 

Also, I know this whole movie is predicated on Winslow and Phoenix having a moment together - but they met for like what, 30 seconds? This movie is basically one woman's journey with predators - the 'nice guy' who obsesses over her, the record exec that does casting couch auditions, the label owner that gets her hooked on drugs and sleeps with her to piss off the 'nice guy' and to top it off, they try to kill her. She was in a no win story line.

[IMAHUGEHDTGMFAN 1837]

Heads up for anybody who wants to see Phoenix in something a little less scary than her Elaine dance

 

http://www.indiewire...ngs-1201844977/

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Heads up for anybody who wants to see Phoenix in something a little less scary than her Elaine dance

 

http://www.indiewire...ngs-1201844977/

She's also Janet in the Rocky Horror follow-up Shock Treatment.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083067/

[JammerLea 2070]

So Sammich got the BD/DVD for this movie and the other day we watched the bonus documentary.

 

Though I think a number of these are mentioned in the IMDB Trivia for the movie, some moments that stuck with me:

 

When Paul Williams got signed on, they were considering him to play Winslow, but he insisted on being Swan. He also thought he was very sexy. He also meant for "Meet the Devil", the song that starts when Winslow jumps the fence, to be a full length song, but it never happened.

 

The recording studio where the Phantom composes his music was a real state-of-the-art recording studio, and they almost weren't allowed to use it, but Williams got them in.

 

Jessica Harper beat Linda Ronstadt in getting the role of Phoenix, and she's very proud of it.

 

When Swan is adjusting the Phantom's voice feed, the "perfect" voice that he creates is Swan's, not Winslow's.

 

The toy press machine that disfigures Winslow, almost did crush Finley's head.

 

Finley was allergic to the Phantom's mask and had to take frequent breaks. Also he couldn't hear through the mask, and they finally had to rig up a small radio receiver so he could take direction.

 

They had considered a scene for Beef's funeral, where the people attending at the cemetery were singing and Swan was recording them to steal their song. It was also to involve a young girl tap dancing on his car, but ultimately they weren't able to find a good cemetery location. "The Hell of It" was supposed to be for that scene.

 

Gerrit Graham was amazing to listen to as half his interview was in French, and the other half in English and he'd switch between the two fluently. He was asked to perform Beef as flamboyant, and did so well that some of the crew apparently thought he was gay and kind of harassed him on set. Don't feel too bad though, because he and some of the other guys spent the evenings trying to chase tail and Jessica Harper had to fight them off.

 

Annnd that's all that's coming to mind at the moment.

[EternalSammich 167]

I just want to chime in that I really liked "Old Souls" and felt it was my favorite song. Paul Williams mentions it in the documentary as being one of his favorite among all the songs he's written.

 

I didn't really know anything Paul Williams prior to watching this movie and I'm actually glad I got to learn a bit about him. I, of course, recognize some of the music he wrote that other people sang. It's pretty awesome.

 

I totally agree with Cam Bert. I can't imagine anyone showing up to a second audition after pretty much being sexually harassed at the first audition.

 

I forgot to mention that in the documentary Brian De Palma mentions that once distribution was settled with Fox they got threatened by 3 lawsuits. One was for the name "Phantom" because of the Phantom comic book. The other was "Swan Song" which was previously mentioned. The third was by the family of a musician that had got killed on set by being electrocuted just like Beef in the film. The family felt it was too similar or something to the actual death of their family member..

[Principal Archivist 38]

.

 

I forgot to mention that in the documentary Brian De Palma mentions that once distribution was settled with Fox they got threatened by 3 lawsuits. One was for the name "Phantom" because of the Phantom comic book. The other was "Swan Song" which was previously mentioned. The third was by the family of a musician that had got killed on set by being electrocuted just like Beef in the film. The family felt it was too similar or something to the actual death of their family member..

 

Nooo, not quite. The three claims were the Phantom comic book title issue, the Swan Song claim, and Universal's claim that the storyline hewed too closely to their Phantom of the Opera storyline (which differed from the original novel, and from the story in the Lon Chaney and other early film versions). The Swan Song claim was brought by Led Zeppelin's manager, Peter Grant, and part of his motivation for bringing the claim was that he had previously managed a band whose lead singer, in Beef-like fashion, was electrocuted onstage. It's all explained on my Swan Song Fiasco page, here:

https://www.swanarch...tion_Fiasco.asp

[EternalSammich 167]

Oh yeah! Sorry I forgot about the "Phantom of the Opera" claim by Universal. (Sorry. I watched the documentary a few days ago... and I was relying on memory).

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

 

Nooo, not quite. The three claims were the Phantom comic book title issue, the Swan Song claim, and Universal's claim that the storyline hewed too closely to their Phantom of the Opera storyline (which differed from the original novel, and from the story in the Lon Chaney and other early film versions). The Swan Song claim was brought by Led Zeppelin's manager, Peter Grant, and part of his motivation for bringing the claim was that he had previously managed a band whose lead singer, in Beef-like fashion, was electrocuted onstage. It's all explained on my Swan Song Fiasco page, here:

https://www.swanarch...tion_Fiasco.asp

Holy shit, have we achieved such internet fame that the owner of the Phantom of the Paradise archive page is chiming in to discussion? Welcome, weary traveller! Endow your knowledge on to us!

 

[Principal Archivist 38]

Thank you Mr. Tranch... if that IS your real name... pretty much everything I know has already been brain-dumped into the pages of my site, but happy to help if I can!

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

It's an awesome resource - so much interesting stuff there. What's your relationship with 'Phantom of the Paradise'? Superfan, or insider? (apologies if that information is abundantly clear on your site)

 

What do YOU love about this movie?

 

And most importantly, how did you find out we were discussing it in the forum? Are you a regular HDTGM listener? Is there anything we've missed?