Musical Mondays Week 21 Guys and Dolls

[EvRobert 1684]

I love this movie but it isn't without it's problems. Brando can't sing and his style of acting clashes with everyone elses. Sinatra is wrong for Nathan (Lane is a good choice, Oliver Platt did Nathan opposite Lauren Graham). But man do the songs work, the set design is fantastic, it's a technical marvel. G&D is a show that I've never gotten to do but man would I love to. I like that these are these loveable losers who think they are big shots because they are "connected". That's probably what drew Sinatra to Nathan because he KNEW guys like Nathan.

 

I think Channing Tatum (who I love, easily one of the best parts of Hail Ceaser!) and Joseph Gordon Levitt are WRONG. Well maybe not Tatum as Sky, but give someone who was in Channing's shoes, 10, 20 years ago the spot of Nathan. That's my interpreation. Nathan is Sky but 20 years older and "wiser". I keep going in my mind to Ethan Hawke or an even wilder suggestion, RDJ as Nathan with Channing as Sky.

[Quasar Sniffer 4174]

 

Yeah, I get their relationship made sense at the time. But still wish there was more charm to these characters. Or some sharper dialogue like there was in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes.

And speaking of, I saw another potential/alternate casting on IMDb :

"Before Samuel Goldwyn outbid Paramount for production rights, the studio was hoping to assemble his dream cast: Clark Gable (as Sky Masterson), Bob Hope (as Nathan Detroit), Jane Russell (as Sergeant Sarah Brown), and Betty Grable (as Miss Adelaide)."

 

I think Jane Russell would be an interesting Sarah.. but kind of hard for me to picture.

Hell, that would have been a fantastic cast as well. I don't know how well Gable could sing, but I think the Tall, Dark, and Handsome thing he had a patent on before Brando's generation of actors came to Hollywood would have served the movie better than Brando. He could brood AND be likable! And Betty Grable as Adelaide? That would have been perfect. Bob Hope, who had a patent on the Lovable Loser shtick for his whole career (despite being the richest motherfucker in Hollywood), probably would have been able to make the whole "silly shenanigans" tone come out more fully, overcoming the lack of empathy in the human relationships.

 

It seems like there's half a dozen other versions on this movie that could have been perfect.

[EvRobert 1684]

 

Yeah, I get their relationship made sense at the time. But still wish there was more charm to these characters. Or some sharper dialogue like there was in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes.

And speaking of, I saw another potential/alternate casting on IMDb :

 

 

I think Jane Russell would be an interesting Sarah.. but kind of hard for me to picture.

I'd take Hope as Detroit, Crosby as Sky, Russell as Adelide, and Marilyn as Sister Sarah. It would be a cluster of a movie, but would it be great.

[EvRobert 1684]

Another thought on who could play Nathan, Seth McFarland (although I think he'd be a better Harold Hill) particularly if G&D ever gets the winter "live on stage via network television" treatment

[Quasar Sniffer 4174]

Another thought on who could play Nathan, Seth McFarland (although I think he'd be a better Harold Hill) particularly if G&D ever gets the winter "live on stage via network television" treatment

I actually agree. I think he'd do very well in that role, certainly better than captaining a Star-Trek-But-Not-Star-Trek starship in The Orville.

[EvRobert 1684]

I actually agree. I think he'd do very well in that role, certainly better than captaining a Star-Trek-But-Not-Star-Trek starship in The Orville.

 

I am liking The Orville, but you can tell it's him being like "I really really really want to do Star Trek". It's Star Trek fan fiction. However if they did Guys and Dolls with McFarland they could probably get Stewart and Victor Garber in it.

[Quasar Sniffer 4174]

 

I am liking The Orville, but you can tell it's him being like "I really really really want to do Star Trek". It's Star Trek fan fiction.

Yeah, and me being someone who's been a Star Trek fan ever since I had a grasp on human speech... why does he get to make his Star Trek Fan Fiction TV show and I don't?!?!?!

[EvRobert 1684]

Yeah, and me being someone who's been a Star Trek fan ever since I had a grasp on human speech... why does he get to make his Star Trek Fan Fiction TV show and I don't?!?!?!

 

I've been wondering that too, I mean I wanna make my star trek fan fiction about the Ferengi, all in the Ferengi native tongue

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

I know I'm coming in late here, but I've never seen this before tonight, I just finished watching, and ... a few thoughts:

 

1. TWO AND A HALF HOURS

 

2. One of the things I love about watching old movies I've never seen is figuring out how many things I have seen reference this movie. It's the same as when I would watch Bugs Bunny, with background music that riffed off of old classical music, and then years later would being listening to NPR in the afternoon and some Wagner piece would come on and I'd go, "Oh! Elmer and Bugs were Siegfried and Brunhilda!"

 

3. It's funny how lots of people today over-romanticize the 1950s as a period of unassailable family values and such, while in the 50s they were waxing nostalgic for dice games, pick pockets, and betting on the horse races.

 

Although, the 50s version of the Big City crime-ridden cesspool is pretty cute. They're shooting craps in the sewers and hustling in the street, yet there is not a bit of smog or soot to be seen and everyone is dressed sharp as a tack.

[PollyDarton 1807]

1. TWO AND A HALF HOURS

 

I had to work tonight and I only got an hour and 40 minutes into G&D.

 

I'll do my best to finish tomorrow and I'm sure I'll have more to say, but until then I'll give you this:

The WWE salutes you.

[tomspanks 9039]

I had to work tonight and I only got an hour and 40 minutes into G&D.

 

I'll do my best to finish tomorrow and I'm sure I'll have more to say, but until then I'll give you this:

The WWE salutes you.

 

This part cracked me up. What was he even aiming for? The floor?

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

 

This part cracked me up. What was he even aiming for? The floor?

 

I think the more pertinent question is: What part of that guy's body goes flying off to the left when he gets hit?

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

 

Oh, those were definitely coconuts. Apparently that's how they used to spell it, although by the 1950s, usage was on the decline.

 

Sorry for being out of the conversation most of the day. Just wanted to add the Marx Brothers movie The Cocoanuts (1929).

[tomspanks 9039]

I think the more pertinent question is: What part of that guy's body goes flying off to the left when he gets hit?

 

His skull.

[Cameron H. 23786]

It felt like in the previous thread a lot of people were saying how much they loved this one, and I was wondering if any of those people felt like elaborating. I thought it was just fine, but I didn't love it or anything. I was just wonder what the arguments are for it.

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

It felt like in the previous thread a lot of people were saying how much they loved this one, and I was wondering if any of those people felt like elaborating. I thought it was just fine, but I didn't love it or anything. I was just wonder what the arguments are for it.

A lot of people here seem to have grown up with it, or at least seen it for the first time when they were young. We should never hold people accountable for the things they loved when they were kids. Anything this bright and shiny yet so full of crime and mischief would have appealed to me, too.

 

But I did not see this as a kid. I saw this last night. Here is all I can muster:

 

1. The music is not terrible. I was singing "Doing it for Some Doll" earlier today.

2. Brando and Sinatra are both sexy as hell. Sharp and polished. Even though they look like they have a combined age of 150. Even though Brando talk sings "Luck" when Sinatra would have. Killed. It. Their zoot suit wise guy schtick was still pretty cool to behold.

3. This movie is set in the seedy parts of the Big City, yet everyone and everything is gorgeous. So, sexy people sinning it up. Always fun.

4. Everyone loves an anti-hero. Sky and Detroit could be the Jerry and George of their time, if Jerry and George played craps in the sewer.

5. I actually did like Sky's romantic rap on the church girl. He is a bad guy, but he knows enough about religion to correct her on her quote citation. You know he sealed the deal the moment he said the word "Isaiah." High school Triple would have aspired to be like that, and I was into shiny clothes, too.

6. It has shown me that not speaking with contractions sounds so odd these days as to sound almost elegant.

 

So yeah ... worth seeing once. Glad I did. I will add it to the rolodex and probably get a few other Simpsons references I might not have prior.

[EvRobert 1684]

I can TRY to explain why I love this movie. Part of it is what Triple said though, I saw it when I was a young musical theater nerd and there is just something about it that works for me.

 

Mankewicz directs with a sure steady hand, the music styling between burlesque, religious, and traditional broadway show tunes works. The palate is colorful but not "overly bright" which reflects on the characters, they criminals, they aren't to be admired and yet they aren't extremely dark. I think you compare this to some of the other "classic" musicals like Sound of Music or Oklahoma or Music Man, the main characters are "saved" or "redeemed" and even though Sky and Nathan get married, there's no indication (at least on my part) that they will be giving up their lifestyles. I also think the songs are some of the most "ear wormy" of almost any Broadway show.

[Cakebug Tranch 6873]

As I've said, this week has been so nuts at work that I haven't had a chance to re-watch this film WHICH I PICKED. This means that I last saw this movie when I was in high school, 22 years ago. In my senior year, we did 'G+D' for our big school musical, and all the stars aligned that meant I got to play Nathan Detroit. That means I got to sing 'Guys and Dolls', 'Oldest Established', 'Sue Me' and even 'Adelaide' (written for Frank for the movie but inserted into the end of our show to give me more to do). To prep for that show we watched the movie non-stop. NON. STOP. All my memories of that film are fond, and fuzzy. I love 'Runyonland' and the pastels of the 'seedy' City. I can still recite the 'squirt cider in his ear' speech to this day.

 

Reading all these reactions makes me not want to rewatch, though. I think sticking with my memory of being 16 years old and thinking that Frank and Marlon were awesome (I had no sense then that Marlon wasn't a good singer) might be the way to go.

[sycasey 2.0 2301]

Even though Brando talk sings "Luck" when Sinatra would have. Killed. It.

 

Oh, he did.

 

[Cam Bert 8145]

It felt like in the previous thread a lot of people were saying how much they loved this one, and I was wondering if any of those people felt like elaborating. I thought it was just fine, but I didn't love it or anything. I was just wonder what the arguments are for it.

Much like some other here I was first in Guys and Dolls in high school and got a chance to be in it once again in a local theater production outside of high school. So I have that element to it, which taints it a little towards forgiveness. However, I watched this again for this MM and having scene it live more than the few times I saw the movie before acting it in productions of it I have to say... the movie doesn't fully hold up.

 

I think my problem is I have seen this more on stage than the movie and the movie and the stage production are very different things I've come to realize. I think it goes back to how this tread started with the weird casting. Most of the players are from the original Broadway run, but the leads aren't (aside from Adelaide) and I think that hurts it. Sinatra doesn't have the timing or charm that the Nathan character has, and a lot of the jokes play better live than on film when you are left with a laugh break and you're not laughing. There is also the element of a lot of great songs (Bushel and a Peck, I've Never Been in Love Before) just being flat out omitted for more songs for Sinatra which even though written by the original writers aren't as good. Aside from the love songs, the songs are suppose to be funny and light. The problem I have with the "Sue Me" number in the movie is that it fails to really capture that duality. Nathan's part is a genuine love song while Adelaide is a more comedic number. Which the play is suppose to be in a nutshell. The Sky and Sarah story is a love story about people falling for each other when they shouldn't and Nathan's is more akin to a farce with him lying to everyone and trying to run and be everything at once. Even when you look at the love stories that's how it is. Young love full of hope and passion and old love full of bickering with true love at the core.

 

What the movie has though are Guys and Dolls great songs. Even if Brando is not the best, a lot of these songs are fun I think. "Sit Down You're Rocking the Boat" is a jaunty number to end on (even though "Marry the Man Today" would help make the wedding seem less rushed and sudden), and the overlapping "Fugue for Tinhorns" is a fun little number to start off on. "Luck Be A Lady" has that good dance number before the actual song and scene. The movie starts which the slapsticky number and the overture capturing that classic musical feel. I think the music is where the movie really shines.

 

I say if you are lukewarm on the movie try to see it live once because when the actors are a bit better cast with some better timing, there are a lot of good laughs. The Big Jules numberless dice scene is usually a very funny bit along with the whole church scene at the end. Also the missing songs are all good and should be heard.

[Cameron H. 23786]

As I've said, this week has been so nuts at work that I haven't had a chance to re-watch this film WHICH I PICKED. This means that I last saw this movie when I was in high school, 22 years ago. In my senior year, we did 'G+D' for our big school musical, and all the stars aligned that meant I got to play Nathan Detroit. That means I got to sing 'Guys and Dolls', 'Oldest Established', 'Sue Me' and even 'Adelaide' (written for Frank for the movie but inserted into the end of our show to give me more to do). To prep for that show we watched the movie non-stop. NON. STOP. All my memories of that film are fond, and fuzzy. I love 'Runyonland' and the pastels of the 'seedy' City. I can still recite the 'squirt cider in his ear' speech to this day.

 

Reading all these reactions makes me not want to rewatch, though. I think sticking with my memory of being 16 years old and thinking that Frank and Marlon were awesome (I had no sense then that Marlon wasn't a good singer) might be the way to go.

 

You might still like it, or at the very least, I don't think it will upset your fond memories that surround it (which sounds like circumstantial affection - the movie being almost incidental to the situation).

 

Don't get me wrong: I didn't hate this. I just didn't like it as much as I expected. I'm also sure, that had I seen this as a teenager, I would have thought Sky was a really cool dude.

[Cam Bert 8145]

You might still like it, or at the very least, I don't think it will upset your fond memories that surround it (which sounds like circumstantial affection - the movie being almost incidental to the situation).

 

Don't get me wrong: I didn't hate this. I just didn't like it as much as I expected. I'm also sure, that had I seen this as a teenager, I would have thought Sky was a really cool dude.

I agree. I don't think you'll hate the movie by any means. You might see some flaws but that won't change your opinion overall I don't think. Plus a lot of those memories are bound to come flooding back which is always nice..

 

I also think we can all agree 16 year old CakeBug Detroit would have been a dreamy delight.

[Cameron H. 23786]

I agree. I don't think you'll hate the movie by any means. You might see some flaws but that won't change your opinion overall I don't think. Plus a lot of those memories are bound to come flooding back which is always nice..

 

I also think we can all agree 16 year old CakeBug Detroit would have been a dreamy delight.

 

That would have been cool, but I would have really liked to see Cake as Sky.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

It felt like in the previous thread a lot of people were saying how much they loved this one, and I was wondering if any of those people felt like elaborating. I thought it was just fine, but I didn't love it or anything. I was just wonder what the arguments are for it.

I had the same feeling as you when I watched it. I never got to do the production in school nor did I see a production of it so I went into it with only Simpsons things on the mind and honestly I wasn't exactly blown away. Frank Sinatra got me, though that's not hard cause he's great.

[Cam Bert 8145]

 

That would have been cool, but I would have really liked to see Cake as Sky.

So.... Cameron Detroit?