Musical Mondays Week 32 Hustle & Flow

[SlidePocket 707]

And The_Triple_Lindy will get their first pick next!

[grudlian. 4725]

Maybe I'm misreading, but are you saying that the filmmakers intended for DJay to be, I don't know, cool or aspirational? Because I didn't get that at all. I felt like they were intentionally portraying him to be a pathetic ads from T to B. I mean, the fact that he thinks handing a cassette as a demo is in anyway acceptable in 2005 and wearing a gold chain with his name on it (no matter how well-intentioned) is cool, just kind of shows how much of an out of touch loser he actually is.

 

Even in the end, the message of the movie isn't so much "work hard and achieve your dreams" so much as "infamy equals instant notoriety." When they announce his song at the end it isn't "this song is great" it's "the guy who wrote it beat up a celebrity and got in a gunfight with his entourage."

 

Talent has nothing to do with his success.

The cassette tape as a demo makes me ask a couple questions. Was everyone involved in making his demo that out of touch? Or was this meant to show just how poor they were?

 

If this were DJay recording all by himself, I'd get it. He clearly hasn't moved forward since he was younger when demo tapes were still the main thing 10 years earlier (although, I think cassette culture seemed to loom larger, longer in hip hop circles than other genres but certainly not into 2005, right?). He also doesn't know anything about production as evidenced by the microphone scenes. But Anthony Anderson was a professional and seemed to be, at least, not poor. He didn't have his own studio, but he certainly would have known better. Was this a way to imply Anthony Anderson had no confidence? Was this a way to show Anthony Anderson was not well off or knowledgeable in his own job?

[Cameron H. 23786]

The cassette tape as a demo makes me ask a couple questions. Was everyone involved in making his demo that out of touch? Or was this meant to show just how poor they were?

 

If this were DJay recording all by himself, I'd get it. He clearly hasn't moved forward since he was younger when demo tapes were still the main thing 10 years earlier (although, I think cassette culture seemed to loom larger, longer in hip hop circles than other genres but certainly not into 2005, right?). He also doesn't know anything about production as evidenced by the microphone scenes. But Anthony Anderson was a professional and seemed to be, at least, not poor. He didn't have his own studio, but he certainly would have known better. Was this a way to imply Anthony Anderson had no confidence? Was this a way to show Anthony Anderson was not well off or knowledgeable in his own job?

 

Exactly! It's not like CD-R' s were expensive at the time. Maybe 10 for $10? Maybe it's because they don't have access to a computer? But he says something like, "iIf they want a CD we can get that for them" Don't they even talk about Skinny Black bootlegging his CD's before he was famous? I don't know. They really should all know better. It seems like it would be harder to find a blank cassette in 2005 than find a way to burn a damn CD.

 

It also seemed like Shelby had decent equipment. Sort of high-tech anyway. And he uses it to record on tape? Get the fuck out of here.

[tomspanks 9039]

If this were DJay recording all by himself, I'd get it. He clearly hasn't moved forward since he was younger when demo tapes were still the main thing 10 years earlier (although, I think cassette culture seemed to loom larger, longer in hip hop circles than other genres but certainly not into 2005, right?). He also doesn't know anything about production as evidenced by the microphone scenes. But Anthony Anderson was a professional and seemed to be, at least, not poor. He didn't have his own studio, but he certainly would have known better. Was this a way to imply Anthony Anderson had no confidence? Was this a way to show Anthony Anderson was not well off or knowledgeable in his own job?

 

I thought Key (Anthony Anderson) had enough confidence. At first Djay probably said he had a working microphone and Key went with it since it was a given that Djay could not afford to upgrade his equipment. I think what they were going for is that Djay's flow is so good that it inspires people like Key and Shelby to pour their time and energy into helping Djay.

[tomspanks 9039]

Exactly! It's not like CD-R' s were expensive at the time. Maybe 10 for $10? Maybe it's because they don't have access to a computer? But he says something like, "iIf they want a CD we can get that for them" Don't they even talk about Skinny Black bootlegging his CD's before he was famous? I don't know. They really should all know better. It seems like it would be harder to find a blank cassette in 2005 than find a way to burn a damn CD.

 

It also seemed like Shelby had decent equipment. Sort of high-tech anyway. And he uses it to record on tape? Get the fuck out of here.

 

Well, Djay definitely referenced Skinny Black's underground tapes at Arnel's bar. Remember Djay pulls out one of Skinny Black's tapes, slides it across the table, and Skinny's all excited to see it?

 

Wait a minute. What year is it supposed to be in the movie? Are we sure it takes place in 2005? We're making fun of Djay's cassette tapes, but at the end, even the prison guards (Big 5-0 and Block C, ha) hand Djay their demo cassette tape.

[kateacola 2440]

The main character is completely despicable, yet you still root for him.

I don't know mayne... I can't say I was rooting for DJ, mayne.

I guess I felt a little bad mayne when Luda tossed his tape in the toilet. But mostly at that point mayne, I was thinking Luda's character was a dick too mayne. I did not care if DJ "made it" in the end or not.

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

I don't know mayne... I can't say I was rooting for DJ, mayne.

I guess I felt a little bad mayne when Luda tossed his tape in the toilet. But mostly at that point mayne, I was thinking Luda's character was a dick too mayne. I did not care if DJ "made it" in the end or not.

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

I mean, it was complete cognitive dissonance. I kind of wanted to see him fail, but I wanted it to work out, too.

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

 

Well, Djay definitely referenced Skinny Black's underground tapes at Arnel's bar. Remember Djay pulls out one of Skinny Black's tapes, slides it across the table, and Skinny's all excited to see it?

 

Wait a minute. What year is it supposed to be in the movie? Are we sure it takes place in 2005? We're making fun of Djay's cassette tapes, but at the end, even the prison guards (Big 5-0 and Block C, ha) hand Djay their demo cassette tape.

 

Well, the gas station had those Skinny Black CD’s...so I’d say we’re at least in the 2000’s.

 

I thought the tape at the end was to show how out of touch they were. Like it was the perpetual cycle of people not knowing what the fuck they’re doing.

 

 

[Cam Bert 8145]

I might be alone in this but did everybody like the ending?

 

For me when you have such a character as DJay(with the ay as he likes it) who is so morally questionable and divisive and you give him the straight up happy ending it feels like a vindication for his actions through out the film. Yes he was right to force Pennsatucky into having sex with the music shop man, he was right to lie to all his friends and make them walk for him, etc. because ultimately he was right about the song being good and he's going to get at least 15 minutes of fame. It just doesn't sit well for me. By the same token him being an abject failure does seem wrong as well because you kinda do want to see him succeed. Which I was never sure if I wanted DJay to succeed or rather I wanted the success so it would effect those around him who I liked and cared about more like Key and Sugar. So if he got a harsher prison sentence but his friends got better lives because of his success would that be better? I don't know, I just know as it was ending any want I had for him to succeed or rise above his station were gone.

[Cam Bert 8145]

The cassette tape as a demo makes me ask a couple questions. Was everyone involved in making his demo that out of touch? Or was this meant to show just how poor they were?

 

If this were DJay recording all by himself, I'd get it. He clearly hasn't moved forward since he was younger when demo tapes were still the main thing 10 years earlier (although, I think cassette culture seemed to loom larger, longer in hip hop circles than other genres but certainly not into 2005, right?). He also doesn't know anything about production as evidenced by the microphone scenes. But Anthony Anderson was a professional and seemed to be, at least, not poor. He didn't have his own studio, but he certainly would have known better. Was this a way to imply Anthony Anderson had no confidence? Was this a way to show Anthony Anderson was not well off or knowledgeable in his own job?

My initial thought on this was because of cars. I remember being back in Canada in the early 2000s and driving around with friends who only had cassette capability because their cars were old and they didn't want to put a new stereo into a car with a questionable lifespan or didn't want to risk it getting stolen. So clearly DJay and crew are poor and on the wrong side of the tracks so to speak. His Cadillac is old and falling apart and has a manual radio. It didn't appear to have a stereo at all, so maybe in his mind people around him and his circle could only listen to cassettes in their cars so why make a CD. Not saying this is the right answer but this is how I justified it in my head for a good portion of the film. However I do think it is kinda what others have said as Skinny Pete got his success by doing tapes, which was probably only a few years prior, so that's what he knew and thought.

[Quasar Sniffer 4174]

Cameron H., on 26 February 2018 - 09:08 PM, said:

 

Maybe I'm misreading, but are you saying that the filmmakers intended for DJay to be, I don't know, cool or aspirational? Because I didn't get that at all. I felt like they were intentionally portraying him to be a pathetic ass from T to B. I mean, the fact that he thinks handing a cassette as a demo is in anyway acceptable in 2005 and wearing a gold chain with his name on it (no matter how well-intentioned) is cool, just kind of shows how much of an out of touch loser he actually is.

 

Even in the end, the message of the movie isn't so much "work hard and achieve your dreams" so much as "infamy equals instant notoriety." When they announce his song at the end it isn't "this song is great" it's "the guy who wrote it beat up a celebrity and got in a gunfight with his entourage."

 

Talent has nothing to do with his success.

 

Hmm... I definitely don't think the film is trying to portray Djay as aspirational, but definitely sympathetic and maybe even someone the audience is supposed to be rooting for. Like Cam Bert said, the ending seems to vindicate him in the filmmakers' eyes, especially considering how all the other characters seem to be stronger for having known him. As if his flow was so magical, he passion for music so uplifting, it was ok for him to be a pimp and exploit these women. I feel like the movie would have functioned better if he was a villain and Key, Nola, and Shug were able to profit from his song while Djay rots in jail (or dies). He wasn't even able to keep it together in the club, lost control, and assaulted Skinny Black that got him arrested.... but also got him street cred I guess? Is that a win for this character? Is that supposed to be inspiring?

 

I still don't get how it's hard out here for him; he's the character who is making the easiest choices. He's not a prostitute, he's not pregnant destined to raise that child alone, hell, even DJ Qualls made the choice to have a bullshit vending machine job that doesn't pay well and leavings him stinking of junk food rather than become a pimp (or some other such criminal path). It's hard out here for THEM.

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

Hmm... I definitely don't think the film is trying to portray Djay as aspirational, but definitely sympathetic and maybe even someone the audience is supposed to be rooting for. Like Cam Bert said, the ending seems to vindicate him in the filmmakers' eyes, especially considering how all the other characters seem to be stronger for having known him. As if his flow was so magical, he passion for music so uplifting, it was ok for him to be a pimp and exploit these women. I feel like the movie would have functioned better if he was a villain and Key, Nola, and Shug were able to profit from his song while Djay rots in jail (or dies). He wasn't even able to keep it together in the club, lost control, and assaulted Skinny Black that got him arrested.... but also got him street cred I guess? Is that a win for this character? Is that supposed to be inspiring?

 

I still don't get how it's hard out here for him; he's the character who is making the easiest choices. He's not a prostitute, he's not pregnant destined to raise that child alone, hell, even DJ Qualls made the choice to have a bullshit vending machine job that doesn't pay well and leavings him stinking of junk food rather than become a pimp (or some other such criminal path). It's hard out here for THEM.

 

The thing is, a lot of famous rappers did exactly what DJay did. Jay-Z was a crack dealer. Ice-T was a pimp. And so on and so on. They never got their comeuppance. I think the movie is a commentary on this. I don't think DJay is ever REALLY supposed to be sympathetic. I think the movie tries to go a bit deeper than "is he a good guy or a bad guy?" Rappers who do songs about dealing drugs, pimping, and gunfights are held up as heroes, but this is the disgusting, desperate, and pathetic reality behind all of that. In the end the movie the movie is asking, "You think these guys are cool? Well, this is what all this all actually means. You still cool with that?" In other words, the movie is less about learning abut who DJay is and more about learning who you are.

[Quasar Sniffer 4174]

 

The thing is, a lot of famous rappers did exactly what DJay did. Jay-Z was a crack dealer. Ice-T was a pimp. And so on and so on. They never got their comeuppance. I think the movie is a commentary on this. I don't think DJay is ever REALLY supposed to be sympathetic. I think the movie tries to go a bit deeper than "is he a good guy or a bad guy?" Rappers who do songs about dealing drugs, pimping, and gunfights are held up as heroes, but this is the disgusting, desperate, and pathetic reality behind all of that. In the end the movie the movie is asking, "You think these guys are cool? Well, this is what all this all actually means. You still cool with that?" In other words, the movie is less about learning abut who DJay is and more about learning who you are.

Maybe that's part of why I like Metal so much? When you ask Metal musicians what they did when they were younger, it's always stuff like, "I dunno... I stayed in because I was depressed and played guitar between sessions of smoking weed while listening to Black Sabbath."

 

But really though, that's also why I prefer hip-hop artists that don't buy into or participate into that narrative (see Beastie Boys, P.O.S., Astronautalis, Common)* or who confront it and comment in it rather than glorify it.

 

*I AM SUCH A FUCKING WHITE PERSON.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

And The_Triple_Lindy will get their first pick next!

Does Back to School really count as a musical?

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

It’s probably hard to totally root for DJay and understand his struggle if you don’t really understand where he’s coming from. Which may be the film’s biggest failure, because everyone who made the film knows exactly where DJay is coming from and they probably take for granted that their own understanding of the character’s off-screen life comes through to the audience as evidently as it does to them.

 

Take, for example, the soundtrack: the guys who composed the Oscar-winning soundtrack for this movie are/were called Three 6 Mafia. They’re from Memphis and got their start there. Their first album came out when I was in high school. And, it was horrifying – even for what is arguably rap’s most violent decade. Biggie and Pac’s music is violent in a way that is heavily socially aware … most gangsta rap is at least valuable in the sense that it speaks truth to power about the real experience of young, inner city black youth. Triple-6 rapped about cannibalism and sacrificing people to Satan, and their music was dark and brooding, going for a horror movie soundtrack feel. But it was all theatrics – they occupied the same space as GWAR or Black Sabbath occupies in metal. Take this song for example, which is a dis track aimed at Bone Thugs n Harmony in which they talk about stripping off their skins and eating their flesh:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTSK5FSYR3s

 

Thing is, Triple 6's music is very Memphis-conscious, and I think that their over-the-top darkness is intentional in that regard. Memphis is kind of a dark place, in ways that other big cities with racial tension are not, necessarily. This is a city that has not seen much economic progress since the 70s. All the buildings and roads are old. Homelessness is rampant. It’s always one of the Top 5 Most Murdery Big Cities in the country. And … look, I don’t speak from first-hand experience, but a whole lot of second- and third-hand experience has taught me that being black in Memphis is on a separate plane than other cities. American Racism was born in the fucking South. As one of my grad school professors put it, “Memphis is a checkerboard” – there are clear lines and boundaries between where the money is and isn’t. And it’s heavy there, man. The local government is corrupt. The cops are racist. The school system is broke. It takes 2 hours every morning before school to get all the kids through the metal detectors, and parents can get jacked after dropoff before they leave the parking lot. The old South is still everywhere, too. You pass about 50 miles of cotton fields driving toward Memphis from Nashville. The city parks, until only very recently, featured giant statues of Nathan Bedford Forrest and Jefferson Davis. You can take Ida B. Wells’ A Red Record and go on a tour of spots where black men were lynched post-emancipation – some of them are right downtown, too.

 

Even though I have love for the city, I also have stories. 5 days after I moved there, a dude stole all the shit in my car. My license plate was ripped off on two separate occasions within 6 months of each other. Homeless people slept in the hallway right outside my door. The super at my apartment complex was killed in the most gruesome murder in Tennessee history. I could go on, but all this is to say that this is the kind of environment that produced Three 6, 8-Ball and MJG, Project Pat, and whole bunch of others – including Djay.

 

So when I, as a former citizen, see a character like Djay, I see aspects of him that resonate with the city’s rather fucked up racial relationship and class structure. I see in Djay the same kind of world-weary nihilism and hopelessness that I saw in some of my neighbors. And I think some of my neighbors felt the same way, which is why a lot of my Memphis friends loved the flick. When he delivers his “man as in mankind” speech, he’s basically lamenting a situation in which he has no control but seems to dictate everything about his life and the options available to him. He turns to the few outlets for opportunity he has … drugs, crime, and ultimately, hip hop.

 

Everyone here is right that the movie doesn’t glorify or lionize hip hop or the kinds of people that it turns into stars. Skinny Black is a bad person. Djay is too, but he actually tries to go about things honestly at first. The fact that his honest efforts fail to bring him recognition where his use of violence succeeds is telling – this is what you have to be to make it in the world if you’re a poor black guy in a city like Memphis.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

I'm not sure it's totally relevant because people made good points about the background of DJay, not just his aspirations. During the picking week and early when people talked about his aspirations I thought of something when I lived in Dallas. There is a group called $30,000 Millionaires who live the millionaire lifestyle on credit and try to impress. Yet their lives are ridiculous and are no way sustainable.

 

http://www.dallasobs...he-mist-6421843

 

https://www.urbandic...k%20millionaire

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

So, for part two of my “In Defense of a Pimp” essay here, I’d like to just ask why we need Djay to be redeemable in order to sympathize with him.

 

Yes, crafting an effectively-sympathetic antihero isn't easy, but it also isn't uncommon. Many of the best-written and most widely-revered characters of the last 25-50 years have been just ... just awful human beings -- Tony Soprano, Don Draper, Walter White, Bruce Wayne, most of the Game of Thrones pantheon, Al Swearingen, and of course Yussel Rabinowitz (ZING!! Got you, Cameron ). The reason is clear -- real people are complex and don't neatly fit into categories as broad as "good/bad," and audiences like to see such complexity reflected in their characters.

 

But I've had debates and have born witness to others with folks who can't (or won't) root for a character like DJay but have no problem with Soprano or Don Draper, but when you tick off the list, DJay is not significantly worse than any of these listed above. Misogynist? Check. Selfish? Check. Foul? Prejudiced? Violent? Exploitative of women? Dismissive of the needs and desires of those around him? Uses others as means to get what he wants? All boxes checked, almost across the entire board.

 

So what's the difference between Djay and these others? I think the most obvious answer is the Djay is an anti-hero who is also a person of color. But the cinematic landscape isn’t without other examples of Anti-Heroes of Color – whose heart didn’t break when Omar died in The Wire? What about Lucious and Cookie in Empire (Hi, Terrance! Hi, Taraji P!)? So that’s maybe too easy of a rationale for me.

 

Maybe it’s because DJay is a pimp, which is kind of an extra-low level of criminal, sure, but being awful toward and exploitive of women is not a deal-breaker for an Al Swearingen or Don Draper.

 

My gut wants to say that, maybe, it’s because he’s Southern, and so an audience’s disgust over his lifestyle is compounded by their automatic disdain for his geographic location. It’s still totally ok for film to be dismissive of Southerners as ignorant and stupid. And hey, I get that – living here is a daily test of sanity and temper. And to be fair, Djay is kinda dumb and crass. He’s rough around the edges and unrefined. Sometimes we like our anti-heroes to rise above their circumstances (Walter White taking charge of his cancer-addled destiny, for example), while Djay seems to wallow in them. But the Sopranos is 6 ½ seasons of Tony Soprano asking a therapist why things seem to be so unfair for him. Yet we root for him (even if, yes, we kinda hope he dies at the end).

 

I don’t know … I agree that Djay is existentially contemplative in a way that separates him from just another stock character. He’s worried he’s going to die without having ever done anything for himself or gotten anywhere. Who can’t relate to that? But I don’t see the movie really advocating that anyone follow his path, since the last shot of the movie is him following his path into a cellblock. His life path took him through unsavory territory, and he has to face the consequences of that. But that means we don’t root for him?

 

To be clear, I’m not accusing anyone here of anything … we’re just having conversations. I guess I’m just sticking up for a character who reminds me a lot of people I know.

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

And The_Triple_Lindy will get their first pick next!

Does Back to School really count as a musical?

Holy shit ... I have no idea what to pick. Musicals aren't really my thing ... I enjoy coming to this board in an "expand your horizons" way but I will for sure pick something stupid for lack of knowing any better.

[Cinco DeNio 5290]

Holy shit ... I have no idea what to pick. Musicals aren't really my thing ... I enjoy coming to this board in an "expand your horizons" way but I will for sure pick something stupid for lack of knowing any better.

[SaraK 1980]

But I've had debates and have born witness to others with folks who can't (or won't) root for a character like DJay but have no problem with Soprano or Don Draper, but when you tick off the list, DJay is not significantly worse than any of these listed above. Misogynist? Check. Selfish? Check. Foul? Prejudiced? Violent? Exploitative of women? Dismissive of the needs and desires of those around him? Uses others as means to get what he wants? All boxes checked, almost across the entire board.

 

 

You've brought up a ton of interesting points that I agree with, but I wanted to say that DJay specifically lost me when he evicted the toddler. I think I would have been at least willing to root for him if I wasn't worried about a baby he clearly cared for (the piano scene was cute!). His scenes with the other two women in his life weren't heartwarming per say but were at least something I could understand and see as everyone making an effort to do better, regardless of how small steps they were.

 

I personally have a very hard time with the anti-hero story. I want to root for people to do better, but when they start self-sabotaging and everyone around them is equally as awful, I have a difficult time watching. I'm a sucker, I want the happy ending! I also feel bad for the guy clearly trying when everyone is shitting on him, and then he just gives into their assumptions.

 

 

Holy shit ... I have no idea what to pick. Musicals aren't really my thing ... I enjoy coming to this board in an "expand your horizons" way but I will for sure pick something stupid for lack of knowing any better.

 

ooooh what about....

 

 

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

 

ooooh what about....

 

 

I had thought about this, but we've done a few "story of a rockstar/band/rapper" movies ... don't want to wear everybody out

[grudlian. 4725]

I had thought about this, but we've done a few "story of a rockstar/band/rapper" movies ... don't want to wear everybody out

Anyone who isn't down for Josie And The Pussycats at any and all times, why?

[PollyDarton 1807]

Does Back to School really count as a musical?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSFhvmaEXAo

Clearly!

[Cameron H. 23786]

 

 

Holy shit ... I have no idea what to pick. Musicals aren't really my thing ... I enjoy coming to this board in an "expand your horizons" way but I will for sure pick something stupid for lack of knowing any better.

 

Honestly, I don’t think you can have a stupid pick. I learn something from everything we watch - whether I “like” it or not. My goal is to basically pick movies I’ve never seen before.* Discovering if they’re good or bad is part of the fun.

 

*Technically, I had seen Gigi before, but I had no memory of it.

[tomspanks 9039]

Well, the gas station had those Skinny Black CD’s...so I’d say we’re at least in the 2000’s.

 

Yeah, it was probably the early 2000s. Djay mentions Kobe in one of his songs and it was probably around the time of the Lakers 3-peat.

 

And to be fair, Djay is kinda dumb and crass. He’s rough around the edges and unrefined.

 

Yes, but I don't think he was stupid. I mean, yeah, he got lucky and got a chance to meet Skinny, but once he got to Arnel's, the way Djay manipulated Skinny was like a masterclass on hustling (until the bathroom scene of course). And I couldn't write like that. What would my rap even be about? the hardship of having to wait 30 minutes for bottomless mimosas at brunch?