Episode 185 - Adore

[JulyDiaz 2797]

Charles Rogers and Jordan Firstman (Search Party) along with HDTGM All-star Kulap Vilaysack join Paul and Jason to discuss the 2013 drama Adore starring Naomi Watts and Robin Wright. They talk about the yacht-building business, aggrosurfing, flirting with moms, and much more. Plus, they unpack five star reviews of the movie on Amazon.

 

Check out new HDTGM merch over at https://www.teepublic.com/user/howdidthisgetmade

Where to Find Jason, June & Paul:

You can see Jason, June, and Paul in The Disaster Artist in theaters now.

Paul’s new comedy Drive Share is available on Go90. Paul can be seen on A Futile and Stupid Gesture, Wet Hot American Summer: Ten Years Later, Opening Night, and Veep. You can see June and Paul on NTSF:SD:SUV:: on HULU. June stars in Grace and Frankie on Netflix, as well as Lady Dynamite alongside with Jason.

Jason can be seen in The Good Place, The House, The Lego Batman Movie, How to Be Single, Sleeping with Other People, and is still indeed in The Dictator.

[SamLawson_105743 6]

What if this movie starred Brad Pitt and Matt Damon fucking each other's daughters?

 

"Did we do that?"

"They're young Goddesses."

 

I think we'd all have to register as sex offenders for even watching it!

[hemlocksmoothie 30]

Haven't listened to the episode yet, but just wanted to point out that my weird personal takeaway from this movie was that Naomi Watts has a real thing for being romantically humiliated at parties. The whole lead-up to her seeing Tom dancing with his new love interest gave me anticipatory Mulholland Drive shudders.

 

 

 

 

[grudlian. 4725]

What if this movie starred Brad Pitt and Matt Damon fucking each other's daughters?

 

"Did we do that?"

"They're young Goddesses."

 

I think we'd all have to register as sex offenders for even watching it!

This is something I really go back and forth on with this movie. I think its a gross plot because Wright and Watts are mother figures. But I also think they are consenting adults and the sons initiate everything. But then I also think, as June said in Ladybugs, this is really only considered acceptable because it's happening to men instead of women. Then I think if I'm just teetering on whataboutism with that.

 

If the movie had given in and made the main characters hedonistic libertines who can't control their taboo passions, I might have respected the movie more. Since the writer wrote Dangerous Liasons, Atonement, Dangerous Method, I think that's what the movie wanted to do.

[Cameron H. 23786]

What if this movie starred Brad Pitt and Matt Damon fucking each other's daughters?

 

"Did we do that?"

"They're young Goddesses."

 

I think we'd all have to register as sex offenders for even watching it!

 

I found it troubling both Tom and Ian had girls. Especially considering how doomed and fatalistic everything is presented. Thank God, Mary took those kids away.

 

P.S. I haven’t listened yet. Sorry if I’m being repetitious.

[RyanSz 3140]

So haven't listened yet but honestly, with all of the various things this movie is title in different countries, why not just swing for the fences and call it The Motherfuckers?

[Mattrix 17]

Hello all, first time long time! Had to register to say a few things

 

To the forum:

There was a version of this movie based on men and their daughters with Michael Cain called "Blame it on Rio."

 

Observation:

I found it interesting that a recurring theme of the episode was Paul and the gang saying all four of these people were essentially one character instead of 4 individual characters. The movie almost seemed to try and nod to this in the most cliche way possible with the apple slice scene after the boys fight in the water. They sit there and eat 1 apple cut up into quarters. Roz is already eating hers when the scene starts, then Lil's son grabs and eats his, then Roz's son, then finally Lil. Pretty much the same order of their transgressions. All 4 had their piece that would make the whole, and just hilarious that it's the heavy handed apple forbidden fruit metaphor.

 

Correction:

The wife says "Isn't it obvious, they're LOVERS too" not "Isn't it obvious, they love us too"

[ChunkStyle 1160]

Curse Netflix for not being able to watch this movie at 1.5x speed.

 

I thought the biggest plot hole of the movie was Tom's 21st birthday party. It was absolutely packed with young hot people that I assume were not bused in from another town. So Tom and Ian didn't grow up in isolation with Lil and Roz being the only women they ever saw. The two young surf gods never attracted any interest in high school? Presumably going out on a couple of dates their senior year would have prevented everything that happened.

[PlanBFromOuterSpace 3138]

What if this movie starred Brad Pitt and Matt Damon fucking each other's daughters?

 

"Did we do that?"

"They're young Goddesses."

 

I think we'd all have to register as sex offenders for even watching it!

I feel like I have to register just for reading the premise.

[tomspanks 9039]

Curse Netflix for not being able to watch this movie at 1.5x speed.

 

I thought the biggest plot hole of the movie was Tom's 21st birthday party. It was absolutely packed with young hot people that I assume were not bused in from another town. So Tom and Ian didn't grow up in isolation with Lil and Roz being the only women they ever saw. The two young surf gods never attracted any interest in high school? Presumably going out on a couple of dates their senior year would have prevented everything that happened.

 

Tom and Ian weren't in love with any of those hot young women, duh.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

So I wanted to really wait to comment on this until I had listened to the episode because I wanted a fully in depth reason for why people didn't like this movie, and now that I have that I can relent that there are problem with the script and plot. To me, however, I still sit on the side of liking this. When I first read the synopsis I will admit that I was like "ew" because in my mind it was just straight pedophilia, but seeing the cast and knowing that Xavier Samuel (Ian) was 6 years older than me it calmed me into thinking this wasn't going to be as gross as I originally thought. Of course they still present them as 18 year olds and Tom makes that comment that they've been thinking about it for much longer which makes the audience go "ew" again, but I legit can't explain why not once during this film did I get grossed out by what was happening. Especially considering how easily I get grossed out by these kind of situations. The only thing I can think of is the fact that I still knew that both of those guys are older than me and I was already 23 when this came out.

 

I definitely think that this is worthy of a discussion considering the climate we are currently in because after Call Me By Your Name came out there has been a lot of talk surrounding "power dynamics" when it comes to age gap romances. With Elio he was 17 and Oliver was (I believe) 24, and there is an overtone of "Did Oliver take advantage of Elio's naivete?" But with Adore while there is that still same conversation of power dynamics between the age gaps they present this story very much as the men made the decisions and took control over the situation. Obviously Roz and Lil are still the adults and still have the power to be like, "No this is wrong," but it's definitely presented differently than most age gap romantic stories I've ever seen. And that's why I think I was glamored by this movie like Kulap said she originally was as well.

 

I believe that this story definitely would have worked better as a whole if there had been much more "this is wrong" peppered throughout because, like the gang said, there is not enough guilt in these relationships to show that they are truly struggling with what is happening which brings the audience back to "ew."

 

In my opinion, I think that Robin and Xavier were the real romance story of this movie, and Noami and Lone Brunette dude who's name I never bothered to learn were filler, or even you can take Noami's infatuation with Brunette and create a story out of that (like Jason mentioned it would work as a thriller), but the two together don't work quite as well. Because I could actually see the chemistry between Robin and Xavier. To me they were actually working and were in love and they were both consenting adults and it worked on screen. If I'm alone in that thought then so be it because even listening to the group talk I still get that feeling.

 

Idk this goes back to a lot of weird area and I'm not exactly sure if I'm either qualified or comfortable having that kind of conversation here. But in any way I look at it I still loved this movie (maybe now can downgrade to like now that I've admitted the flaws within it), and I do welcome discussion about it obviously because that's why we're all here.

 

Oh also it would have been a 10/10 would recommend movie if the two women had been lesbians.

[Cameron H. 23786]

So I wanted to really wait to comment on this until I had listened to the episode because I wanted a fully in depth reason for why people didn't like this movie, and now that I have that I can relent that there are problem with the script and plot. To me, however, I still sit on the side of liking this. When I first read the synopsis I will admit that I was like "ew" because in my mind it was just straight pedophilia, but seeing the cast and knowing that Xavier Samuel (Ian) was 6 years older than me it calmed me into thinking this wasn't going to be as gross as I originally thought. Of course they still present them as 18 year olds and Tom makes that comment that they've been thinking about it for much longer which makes the audience go "ew" again, but I legit can't explain why not once during this film did I get grossed out by what was happening. Especially considering how easily I get grossed out by these kind of situations. The only thing I can think of is the fact that I still knew that both of those guys are older than me and I was already 23 when this came out.

 

I definitely think that this is worthy of a discussion considering the climate we are currently in because after Call Me By Your Name came out there has been a lot of talk surrounding "power dynamics" when it comes to age gap romances. With Elio he was 17 and Oliver was (I believe) 24, and there is an overtone of "Did Oliver take advantage of Elio's naivete?" But with Adore while there is that still same conversation of power dynamics between the age gaps they present this story very much as the men made the decisions and took control over the situation. Obviously Roz and Lil are still the adults and still have the power to be like, "No this is wrong," but it's definitely presented differently than most age gap romantic stories I've ever seen. And that's why I think I was glamored by this movie like Kulap said she originally was as well.

 

I believe that this story definitely would have worked better as a whole if there had been much more "this is wrong" peppered throughout because, like the gang said, there is not enough guilt in these relationships to show that they are truly struggling with what is happening which brings the audience back to "ew."

 

In my opinion, I think that Robin and Xavier were the real romance story of this movie, and Noami and Lone Brunette dude who's name I never bothered to learn were filler, or even you can take Noami's infatuation with Brunette and create a story out of that (like Jason mentioned it would work as a thriller), but the two together don't work quite as well. Because I could actually see the chemistry between Robin and Xavier. To me they were actually working and were in love and they were both consenting adults and it worked on screen. If I'm alone in that thought then so be it because even listening to the group talk I still get that feeling.

 

Idk this goes back to a lot of weird area and I'm not exactly sure if I'm either qualified or comfortable having that kind of conversation here. But in any way I look at it I still loved this movie (maybe now can downgrade to like now that I've admitted the flaws within it), and I do welcome discussion about it obviously because that's why we're all here.

 

Oh also it would have been a 10/10 would recommend movie if the two women had been lesbians.

 

For my part, I don’t care about their age difference.

 

These women were basically sisters. Roz most likely changed Ian’s diapers - and vice versa. There’s just not enough distance. Had Ian left town after his father died and returned at 25 or something, I would have had no problem. It’s the fact that he even describes her as a “second mother” that’s icky.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

For my part, I don’t care about their age difference. These women were basically sisters. Roz most likely changed Ian’s diapers - and vice versa. The problem is that there’s just not enough distance. Had Ian left town after his father died and returned at 25 or something, I would have had no problem. It’s the fact that he even describes her as a “second mother” that’s icky.

Oh I completely understand that and I definitely think that's supposed to be the conflict of the movie, but I think since they never actually heavily focus on that fact (like I think they only mention that twice in the whole 2 hours) it never really then was focused in my mind.

 

I'm thinking that the real main problem of this film is that it wanted to be 2 different movies. It wanted to be a Call Me By Your Name, the genuine love story about an age gap, and then it also wanted to be a movie that really focused on that taboo of sleeping with your best friend's son. My mind keeps going to American Beauty as a comparison (which now has an extra disgusting layer added on to it that I'm not going to address because I would like to focus on the story itself rather than the fuckwad involved). But unfortunately Adore tried to be both things and while I still enjoyed watching it, it definitely sounds like it didn't work for a lot of people.

[Jollygreen52 57]

When there was a time cut, revealing that both of the guys had daughters, I 100% thought there would be a time cut to 15 years later and they would be fucking each other's daughters. I mean they're obviously both cool with that sort of thing. I was legitimately scared for those little girls.

[Mattrix 17]

This movie is basically sexy/creepy LOST with no smoke monster or polar bears.

[Wien 401]

When there was a time cut, revealing that both of the guys had daughters, I 100% thought there would be a time cut to 15 years later and they would be fucking each other's daughters. I mean they're obviously both cool with that sort of thing. I was legitimately scared for those little girls.

 

That's the sequel

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

To my mind, I don't have to wonder "what if this movie was about men with younger girls" because that exists everywhere in movies, both as a primary plot and as a secondary storyline, and we don't worry about it nearly as much. Some are even considered all-time great movies -- Lolita, Taxi Driver, American Beauty, etc. Sometimes it's even played for laughs. So the "whataboutism" coming forth about this movie is silly. Yes, there are differences, the big one being that these are two women who are friends and who are fucking each others sons, who are also friends -- that's certainly an unusual dynamic. But let's be real and not over-estimate the fictional public reaction to a movie featuring this plot with the genders reversed, which I would imagine to be more like this:

 

Me: "Hey, did you hear that there's a movie where these older guys fuck each other's younger daughters?"

Public:

[grudlian. 4725]

Oh I completely understand that and I definitely think that's supposed to be the conflict of the movie, but I think since they never actually heavily focus on that fact (like I think they only mention that twice in the whole 2 hours) it never really then was focused in my mind.

 

I'm thinking that the real main problem of this film is that it wanted to be 2 different movies. It wanted to be a Call Me By Your Name, the genuine love story about an age gap, and then it also wanted to be a movie that really focused on that taboo of sleeping with your best friend's son. My mind keeps going to American Beauty as a comparison (which now has an extra disgusting layer added on to it that I'm not going to address because I would like to focus on the story itself rather than the fuckwad involved). But unfortunately Adore tried to be both things and while I still enjoyed watching it, it definitely sounds like it didn't work for a lot of people.

I definitely hear you on everything you've said and your earlier post.

 

As gross as this entire movie premise is, I never actually felt icky watching it. I think that's because the movie is messy in its execution and doesn't commit to any of its ideas though. It ends up just being boring to me.

 

Compare that to something like Call Me By Your Name where I felt it was kind of gross but I still enjoyed it. But Call Me By Your Name also commits to its central premise, develops its characters and doesn't have a bunch of ideas happening at once. If Adore pared down to one of its many ideas worthy of being its own movie, it would be such a better movie.

[PollyDarton 1807]

If the movie had given in and made the main characters hedonistic libertines who can't control their taboo passions, I might have respected the movie more. Since the writer wrote Dangerous Liasons, Atonement, Dangerous Method, I think that's what the movie wanted to do.

 

I think there is definitely a hedonistic bent to this story. When we first meet the gals they are running off to go swimming and climb onto their barge where they have a small stash of alcohol. They sip some rum and lay in the sun, in-love with their life and maybe each other. Their life is simple and perfect. We revisit this time and time again in this movie - this idea that this place is a pleasure island of sorts. I especially think of the later scene where they are enjoying their new affairs and sunsoaked happy life when each boy announces that they would be retiring to their respective lovers bedroom. The ladies are shocked at the boldness of their sons attitudes about it--they're young and hot and want some fucking sex now--the women share a look, but they KNOW that each would be giving into their hedonistic desires and running off to fuck their young studs. That's some dirty bad hedonism right there I tellyouwhut.

 

I really think what this movie is trying to say... maybe in a clunky way... is that these women have such a strong kinship that they gave birth to each other's soul mates. They are indeed not "Lezzos." They are definitely sexually attracted to men, but really only need the relationship with each other (an island to themselves) and have no use for any other people. Therefore the boys are just their hedonistic, sexual fulfillment of their sisterly relationship. It's a way to having it all, in a kind of fucked up way.

[Cameron H. 23786]

To my mind, I don't have to wonder "what if this movie was about men with younger girls" because that exists everywhere in movies, both as a primary plot and as a secondary storyline, and we don't worry about it nearly as much. Some are even considered all-time great movies -- Lolita, Taxi Driver, American Beauty, etc. Sometimes it's even played for laughs. So the "whataboutism" coming forth about this movie is silly. Yes, there are differences, the big one being that these are two women who are friends and who are fucking each others sons, who are also friends -- that's certainly an unusual dynamic. But let's be real and not over-estimate the fictional public reaction to a movie featuring this plot with the genders reversed, which I would imagine to be more like this:

 

Me: "Hey, did you hear that there's a movie where these older guys fuck each other's younger daughters?"

Public:

 

I’m not sure you are referencing something that was brought up in the episode, but again, I cannot stress this enough, this has nothing to do with a younger men/women with older women/men dynamic. And even though the movie tries to make that a thing, it really isn’t. Everyone in this movie is legally an adult. I could give a shit about their age differences. It’s the familial closeness that’s bothersome. It’s incest without technically being incest. Naomi Watts and Robin Wright even look remarkably similar.

 

So, just for clarity’s sake, age difference? NBD. Engaging in a sexual relationship with someone you raised from an infant and is practically a family member? BD.

 

Or, in other words, the problem isn’t that Woody Allen is older than Soon-Yi.

 

 

[taylor anne photo 11311]

Oh I just got reminded of a small correction -

 

When Lil and Roz say, "But fucking men!" I don't believe that it was supposed to be received as "Patriarchy!" *fist shake* I believe that we are actually supposed to take that as, "You know what we would've been great together but god damn men are so fucking hot that it kinda ruins the lesbian thing." Plenty of friends and I have jokingly discussed that if we could actually choose our sexuality then we would actively choose not to be attracted to men and then immediately go, "But fuck them for being so attractive." I believe that's what they were trying to achieve with that statement but obviously it wasn't very successful.

[taylor anne photo 11311]

I’m not sure you are referencing something that was brought up in the episode...

The very first comment is a "what if..." scenario that I think speaks to why this was brought up.

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

I’m not sure you are referencing something that was brought up in the episode, but again, I cannot stress this enough, this has nothing to do with a younger men/women with older women/men dynamic. And even though the movie tries to make that a thing, it really isn’t. Everyone in this movie is legally an adult. I could give a shit about their age differences. It’s the familial closeness that’s bothersome. It’s incest without technically being incest. Naomi Watts and Robin Wright even look remarkably similar.

 

So, just for clarity’s sake, age difference? NBD. Engaging in a sexual relationship with someone you raised from an infant and is practically a family member? BD.

 

Or, in other words, the problem isn’t that Woody Allen is older than Soon-Yi.

I think it's more that the first comment in this board is someone suggesting that a movie made the other way around would be grounds for sex offender registration.

 

As I said, I get that the closeness of the characters is what makes Adore different. I just think that difference is negligible, on the whole. This isn't Jaime and Cersei Lannister -- we can call it "incestuous," but it's not actually incest.

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

The very first comment is a "what if..." scenario that I think speaks to why this was brought up.

Bingo

[The_Triple_Lindy 2482]

The most interesting underlying theme in this film, to me, is the idea that these characters live a life of luxury that is so sufficiently dull that they destroy each others' lives just as a hobby. It's like if Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs was a plateau instead of a pyramid, and the characters all say "well, my every basic need is satisfied, and the fulfillment found in the pursuit of stability has been made moot by wealth, and I'm bored enough to smash my life to pieces so I'll at least have something to do while I drink chardonnay on this barge all day." In fact, the barge is a perfect metaphor for how these four people seem to just be drifting through life.