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I feel all kinds of disgusted by all of this. I think it's also important that we look at the language used here. He didn't say " You're having sex with " he said " You're being FUCKED BY" which gives him even more power and puts this as an act he is committing not one that is being mutually done by both parties. Also that article was very gross the way he talked about several of the women I'm not so sure what he had would have been seen as a consenting above grade time with several of them. On the topic of Michael Douglas the survivor of his supposed harassment and abuse had a letter asking about how to fix sexual harassment in the workplace from the California Women's Law Center from 1993 . So around the time this movie was being made or was in post /starting to be advertised. So... Yeah.

1000%! I just finished watching Fosse/ Verden and the show has a flashback to Bob Fosse losing his virginity to two 40 something burlesque dancers at the theater he used to dance in as a kid. It was heartbreaking and disturbing. It's 10000000% assault. No child can give consent. It really bothers me that our culture sees young boys getting preyed on as a good thing. I can't count the number of times I've heard people joke when attractive female teachers have been caught abusing their male students about how "lucky" that poor kid is. Also sort of random but have you ever noticed how when they show photos of those women they always seem to use nice pictures? Like photos from social media where they are smiling and pretty instead of their mug shot. They committed a DESPICABLE crime why are you showing them at their best?!?

What I couldn't wrap my head around with this movie is how a company that produces what's arguably the most boring and mundane piece of hardware (cd-rom players), and does a bad job of it at that, is also able to produce a fully functioning VR environment, which requires hardware and software about a thousand times more complex, but their main selling point remains those lousy cd-rom players?! Hell, just drop those players altogether and focus on the VR-system, which seems to be advanced even in today's standards! And maybe use it for something else other than as an inconvenient filing cabinet?

You know something, far be it from me to tell personal stories, I'm just here to make stupid jokes and factoids. However, this struck a chord with me. I was walking to get a bus, and I happened upon a group of drunk older women on a hen party. I got groped, had them try to take my jacket off, requesting that I get various body parts out, and various other things, and as I'm trying to walk off, they're trying to stop me. People saw this and laughed and said "Go on, you're in there!" like I'd be interested in a gaggle of drunk older women. I didn't feel threatened or harassed at the time, mainly because I'm 6' and I was 240lbs of pretty solid muscle, so no one's making me do anything I don't want to do. However, in retrospect, if they'd have done that to someone a less physically developed for want of a better term, or someone who maybe had social issues or anxieties etc. It might have had a much worse effect on them, and what are they gonna be greeted with?

I did remember those allegations when I was watching Disclosure. It added a weird layer of irony to the entire film for me. RE: Kirk Douglas...holy shit. I agree, that is just all kind of wrong. Using sex to “punish a woman” (or ANYBODY) is some sort of super-aggressive ego-driven bullshit.

I agree with you. On the one hand, they’re both consenting adults, and as such, they should be able to have sex for whatever reason they wish. On the other hand, he purposefully withheld information in order to humiliate her, only to reveal in a particularly vulnerable moment. Just because she’s a piece of crap doesn’t excuse him for using sex as a weapon of retaliation. Even waiting until she’s “hot for him” to spring it on her is pretty bullshit, imo.

I wanted to thank Gigi-tastic for bringing up that sexual assault does happen to men and that it’s about power and not sex. I would actually like the forums to weigh in on this. It is only tangentially related to this film but it has bothered me since I heard it. You guys may know that there are sexual misconduct allegations against Michael Douglas, and also that there are also long-standing rumors that Kirk Douglas was a sexual predator (it is alleged that he raped Natalie Wood when she was 16). When Kirk was honored at the Golden Globes (apparently as a eff you to the ladies wearing Times Up pins), I read some articles about the rumors around him. There is one story that he readily admits to: Now, obviously, no one likes an anti-Semite and there is some triumph in this. But I was also deeply disturbed with how he used sex as a weapon. Like why not tell her when she’s all hot for you and say, “I can’t fuck you because you are an asshole”. Why do it mid act? It seems like sexual violence in some form. Am I wrong about this? This quote from: https://nypost.com/2016/12/08/how-kirk-douglas-charmed-old-hollywoods-finest-beauties/ I can’t find the original article I read it in.

I mean, this film doesn't understand how anything works: email, computers, forklifts, corporate structure, Prozac, virtual reality, marriage, the law, sex...

I agree that this movie is terrible. I also agree wholeheartedly that so called men's rights activists do not give a flying fuck for male survivors or the well being of men in general. For example On International Women's Day many of them demand an International Men 's Day even though that already exists and is November 19. Ironically the day is rarely googled on its actual date. They care about the fact women have a day at all not that they really want their own day. I also agree that yes women are much more likely to be harassed. I've had several conversations with other female friends about how we do not know *any* women who HAVEN'T been sexually assaulted or harassed including ourselves. However I don't think that negates the fact this does happen to men as well and those survivors deserve every bit of respect and compassion as their female counterparts. It could just be my reading but it feels like you're saying that because a smaller number of harassment is reported it means less? That what they went through isn't as upsetting because women face worse? Again this could be my interpretation. I honestly don't think you can compare this kind of thing. It's deeply personal and affects each survivor differently. I think that our society tends to fail people who speak out but I really think that we fail male survivors in a unique and horrible way. It's bad enough to not think you will be believed because the system is awful. Even worse when you think people won't believe you because of your gender.

Apologies all for being MIA. I got a very serious strep infection in my left foot. I have been in the hospital since 9/16. It appears I will get to go home tomorrow so I hope to be able to join next week’s mayhem.

Ok so let's get to the nitty gritty here. Men can be and are sexually harassed. Much like domestic violence it's 100% something that does happen to men but is not talked about nearly as much as what happens to women. Nearly 1 in 5 ( roughly 17%) complaints to the EEOC are by men. A survey by Quinnipiac University found 20 percent of men surveyed had been harassed. While they government does not track the gender of perpetrators researchers say that men are more likely to harass other men then women ( though women can be perpetrators). The number of men who have reported harassment has stayed pretty steady for the past decade. The movie is correct in the idea that a lot of sexual harassment is about power. It's also a way to punish people who do not meet the ideal gender norms and for men in particular, those who are not sufficiently like the idealized version of their (perceived) gender. Many men do not report their harassment much like many male victims of sexual and domestic assault. they feel they will not be believed because we live in a society that thinks only women can be victims. A 2014 study found that Canadian woman were twice as likely to report harassment Han their male counterparts( 20% vs just 9 %) To quote a survivor who told his story in this really great article from the Washington Post : "Funk, 53, said he was at first hesitant to talk about what he said he was experiencing at work. “ ‘You are a man. You should be able to protect yourself,’ ” he recalled thinking to himself." But even incredibly "masculine" men can be subject to harassment. In 2016 Terry Cruz says he was groped by Adam Venit at a party. Venit is a very well known executive who works at William Morris Endeavor. He's not alone. Brandon Fraser claims in 2003 former HFPA president Philip Berk groped him. These are both famous men, powerful in their own right yet they both have stories about harassment. While this movie is 100% the panicking of rich straight white men in the wake of the Anita Hill Clarence Thomas testimony ( yet here we are in 2019 with another sexual predator on the bench. I'm not going off on that rant) there is a germ of truth in it. Sexual harassment can happen to anyone https://www.canadianwomen.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Facts-About-Sexual-Assault-and-Harassment.pdf https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2502 https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/men-account-for-nearly-1-in-5-complaints-of-workplace-sexual-harassment-with-the-eeoc/2018/04/08/4f7a2572-3372-11e8-94fa-32d48460b955_story.html https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/statistics/enforcement/sexual_harassment_new.cfm

This is Spinal Rap (pun curtesy of @grudlian. We watched:

There is a possible cause for Kirk Douglas’ behavior that is briefly described in the article that Electra Boogaloo linked to In the New York Post (once again, the article is called A look back at Kirk Douglas’ most famous sexual conquests, By Linda Massarella, December 8, 2016). in the article, Ms. Massarella writes how Douglas’ sexual experiences started. “It began with his English teacher, a Mrs. Livingston, who seduced him when he was 14, he said.” Ummm, that’s rape. I get the feeling that Douglas might not view it as such, or has talked himself into the belief that it’s proof of his machismo, but at one point he appears to have been a victim. I’m not saying that this excuses anything he’s done—not by a fucking long shot. But... I’ve worked in a middle school. Any 14-year-old that I know would be severely traumatized by a sexual encounter with their adult teacher. It would warp how they relate to people sexually. Perhaps Kirk Douglas is old-school and superhuman and immune to feeling vulnerable—and I honestly don’t know shit about him, he might be—but it wouldn’t be very hard to theoretically link his experience with his teacher to how he treated women in his life. And I guess I did just that, as convincingly as I could.

This was the year after Batman, so to see Michael Keaton go from hero to bad guy was what completely selled it.

Don't forget ... um, Unforgettable. My favorite line not to get mentioned was when Sutherland says at the end, "I was so focused on finding the right woman for the job, when I should've been looking for the right person," which is totally a line meant to set up Michael Douglas getting the job, but then he gives it to another woman. If I were Rosemary Forsythe, I'd be fucking offended by the implication of that statement. He doesn't think Stephanie Kaplan is attractive enough to warrant thoughts about "women," just "people?" Go right on and do one, Donald Sutherland, you stupid national treasure, you.

I wish to address a statement about Demi Moore during the podcast, because it rubbed me the wrong way. "Demi Moore is hot in this movie!" Motherfucker, Demi Moore is ALWAYS hot, and always will be hot!

I think she does say this while Michael Douglas is showing everyone the news footage, but it's only one line uttered in quick objection to what he's doing, rather than something that's been detailed and laid out like in the book.

And one other thing...why go through with the subterfuge of blocking your email address, only to sign it with the name of the person whose email address you are using? And this is 1994...so are you telling me that either this chemistry student or his mom had enough technical know-how to send emails without displaying the sender’s address?

Perhaps it is explained better in the novel, but within the context of this movie the reveal that “A Friend” is the son of the other female employee who gets the promotion at the end of the film makes no sense. There are several scenes where Michael Douglas gets an email referencing things that just recently happened and would only have been known by someone who was near Douglas and working for the company. How is a student at the University of Washington aware of any of these happenings? And, more importantly, why would he care? It even strains believability to assume his mom is telling him what to write in these emails.

I don't think anyone denies that sexual harassment can and does happen to men, but horseshit movies like this don't help, and I don't care for the arguments that try to compare the relatively uncommon suffering and exploitation of men under the patriarchy with the extremely common and usually much more severe suffering of women. It's just not equivalent. Unfortunately there are disgusting organizations claiming to fight for "men's rights" who will use these stats and the testimonies of male victims to push their own sexist, homophobic, and often white supremacist agenda. As someone said on the podcast, this film seems like it would be a real favourite with that crowd, pandering to their inflated sense of victimhood and entitlement.

I think one of the best examples of why this is a good HDTGM movie is that a crucial plot point is a factory that we essentially never visit has changed from a Level 7 to Level 5 air handler. This movie could have been truly great if it been tweaked so that the sexual harassment was a contrived plot where everyone was a conspirator (including his wife and kids) to give Michael Douglas the crucial motivation to solve the Arcamax problem.

I was a big Michael Crichton fan when I was young, I read a lot of his books. But I stopped when he got on his “global warming is a hoax” era. I believe he served as a consult for the Bush White House. That was very disappointing for me from someone who was into science and was a doctor. This movie makes me think he was very right wing all along. He’d be on TV saying these women are ruining men’s lives and such.

I’m listening to the episode and had some info on a part of the movie that confused you. When Disneyland first opened you bought ride tickets in addition to paying general admission. So whoever wrote that line(assuming it’s Crichton) was thinking about pre-1981 Disney.

There were so many sections and bits from this movie that were so dead-on, and the music was so good, my jaw was on the floor. Other times, like I mentioned in my Letterboxd review, there is only so much parody of the misogyny and homophobia in hip hop culture of the time you can do before it becomes just that. Show nearly naked butts as you sing about wanting to put your penis inside it isn't making fun of it, it just is that thing. We are what we pretend to be. Ultimately though, the movie is just too entertaining to be denied, and really feels like a proper skewering of rap and hip hop tropes. This is the era of hip hop that I have listened to the most, so maybe those tropes are just imbedded in my brain, with easy access for these jokes. The cast is wonderful, the performances are note-perfect, and there are one-liners galore (even if some are big ol' duds). I had never heard of this movie before watching it for Musical Mondays, but I am very glad I did. Thanks for introducing me to it!

Hope your daughter is healing well (obviously). I don’t have any kids but I do work in an elementary school (and have a niece and two nephews) and kids’ Injuries can be traumatic for all involved (again, I’m being captain obvious, but it’s true). As for the movie, I really enjoy it, largely because it functions as a time capsule so successfully and because it’s really fucking funny. I wish the homophobic stuff wasn’t there, but it does accurately reflect that problem with rap music itself, especially during that era. It’s a very 90s movie in that respect, as others have noted. But there are tons of classic quotes and it’s insanely impressive that Rusty Cundieff not only wrote and directed the film, but co-wrote all the songs. I also love the PM Dawn stuff, plus the C&C Music Factory parody, the scene where the agent tries to persuade them to wear paper hats when they can’t find their real ones, and Kurt friggin Loder killing it in a cameo role! i’ll also add that some moments, such as the stand off with the security guard, genuinely made me feel uncomfortable in reflecting how little times have changed (that was one section where my friend who I was watching it with said “I can’t laugh at this”). What was true in 1993 remains true twenty-six years later. Holy fucking shit. i had hoped to add some insight from a director’s commentary—I own the DVD—but I was under the weather this weekend and didn’t get around to watching it. When I do, if there’s anything notable, I’ll post about it. All in all, it’s not flawless but it’s a film that deserves a following, I think.