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So I'm about to get very personal. I saw myself in this movie. I've always suffered from mental health issues. I now know I have extreme anxiety, depression and slight OCD . As a child my mom as a single mother and was working a very stressful high profile job as a quality auditor for a blood banking company. She would be gone for a week every other week traveling around the country. When she was home she worked late. I had a really hard time regulating my emotions and dealing with outbursts and fits. Some of it ( most of it) was my anxiety and some was acting out for attention. My doctors ended up putting me on a bunch of medication that caused me to hallucinate and I had to be detoxed. I saw my mom in the Mothers frustration and it reminded me of when she was at the end of her rope because I had been sobbing uncontrollably for over an hour because she said " I love you more than the sun, the moon, and the stars " in the wrong order at bed time . I saw myself in Elizabeth making the mud pie in the time that I tried to make my paternal grandmother lemonade before she woke up with the lemons from her backyard by dumping everything in the kitchen together . I was like 8 I should have known how to make lemonade, and I knew enough to wait for her. It's the only time she's ever yelled at me. To me the movie could be viewed as a the story of a person whose on the spectrum, has adhd, really any number of mental illnesses or is neurodivergent. I don't think that the mother in this movie is evil, I think she doesn't understand how to parent a child who is different . In her mind Elizabeth is deliberately trying to hurt her and be destructive. She sees only malice and is at her wits end. Everything she has tried with her child to get her to "behave" and be "normal" has failed and she's as unruly as ever. We also have to look at her parenting through the time period. Elizabeth's childhood takes place in the 60's it's still very much a conservative time where children, especially girls, are supposed to listen to their parents and the idea of kids having agency is ridiculous. Hitting children was considered a normal punishment and no one would bat an eye. In fact people in her neighborhood probably thought her mom wasn't harsh enough. The methods her mother used out of anger and frustration are wrong. She is not a good mother, I'm not saying that. I'm simply saying that I understand her. Just as I understand Elizabeth. I know exactly how it feels to want to destroy everything in your reach because you can and it's the only way to make the adults in your life suffer as much as you are. I'm not sure it's healthy but God do I understand it.

I'd argue Annabella wasn't the only affair prior to the beginning of the movie. The woman in the dealership seemed very familiar to him (very lunchtime liaison), and Elizabeth doesn't recognize Annabella at the wine tasting party at all even though she walked in on the two of them together on the couch. Do we ever see him comfort or show her any genuine love at all? He does end things with her, but as soon as he wants her back (because tight dress and haircut) he continues to lie and manipulate her, and is alright with her being a medicated zombie as long as things can continue on as they were. And this is nitpicking I know, but their apartment looked to be all him. Like she's a husk of a person but that looked like his apartment that she moved into and never got to bring anything personal into. Since the movie is pretty much all post-Fred there's no way to know how much over-the-top acting out happened before. But from what the movie does give, these were two adults who should not have gotten married (or had a child) based on personality types alone. Checked out, deadbeat father; a mother that needed to be in constant control with everything having the appearance of perfection. Like it makes sense that Fred snowballed out of that. Maybe if the father had been more involved maybe Fred wouldn't exist? If we take out the instances of the mother being passive-aggressive towards Child Elizabeth because of Fred ("I think I love you less", scolding her for ruining her 'long, beautiful hair'), there's still stuff like keeping flowers in the house that she knows her child is allergic to, blaming the child for the father's actions, not playing or acting like the little girl that the mother would prefer. Like that kid doesn't have that bedroom. Her interactions with her adult daughter are just as bad. When we first meet her she doesn't comfort her daughter or say anything about Elizabeth being better off (which she is). It's very 'your husband left you because you did something wrong, and we need to fix you so he'll find value in you again.' She takes her to the mall and gets her a make-over to look exactly like her (she scolds the make-up woman to do Elizabeth's make-up like hers). The trip to Doctor Feelgood to drown out all the problems with pills which is very on-brand. Yes, Elizabeth deeply needs help, but it all comes across like it's a burden to the mother and not something she's doing out of genuine love. The bit at the end where the mother finally shows some vulnerability really makes me feel like she was also emotionally abused as a child and is remorseful of her actions because it's all she knows. I do like the small message that yeah, even if you lose everything and have to start over, it's better to do so as you.

I know most of the posts on here will be simply be offering their stance on the primary debate (I'm 100% Team Sanity, btw) But I wanted to focus on a scene before Fred arrives when Phoebe Cates gets fired. She is a court reporter and after coming back late from lunch gets fired by the judge. First of all, the judge is not her boss. Court reporters either work for the court system or are freelance. That judge would not have the power to fire her. And even if he did, why would you fire the court reporter in the middle of a trial like that. All that would do is delay the trial even further until a new court reporter is available. There's also the possibility that whatever shorthand Phoebe Cates had used when recording the previous parts of the trial wouldn't be understood by anyone else. She would still be needed to transcribe all that she had already typed/reported. However, seeing her get fired as a court reporter did make me recall a news story from a few years ago where a court reporter was fired from his job after it was discovered that he would frequently just by typing random keys or typing repeatedly "I hate my job" instead of actually reporting what was happening in the court cases. Now those cases could be potentially thrown out because lawyers could claim crucial evidence is missing. If you do not have a consistent, reliable court reported, it could be a real mess. The bottom line is that there is no way she's getting fired mid-trial over being late (for a reasonable reason) from lunch.

And She lived Happily Ever After.........How? Lizzie’s Id, Ego, & Super Ego all found balance and harmony. ”Hold Up? Yeah, ok Fred is her Id, but I didn’t see no Super Ego walking around.” Oh yes you did. No one else does though. That’s right Janie (the lovely and great Carrie Fisher) ISN’T FUCKING REAL EITHER. BOOM. MIC. DROP. Ok, I’ll pick it back up for some explanation. When the mother comes to the apartment she all but ignores Janie. Why? Cause she isn’t real. Only Lizzie can see her. Lizzie’s Super Ego has manifested itself into a successful, strong, and independent woman. But wait, there’s that meeting at the board room where she excuses herself in front of a room full of people. No one looks up or acknowledges her. When she raises her voice and starts hitting the wall? Once again, not even a head in her direction. At this point Lizzie’s Id, Fred, sabotages the unhealthy thing in her life. That’s right, Lizzie is also having an affair with an older married man. Hence the “I only have wet dreams” remark to a complete stranger. He was being creepy old perv hitting on his side piece. In a Tyler Durden maneuver Lizzie pulls a chair out of the office, beats up a fake Id, all while exposing Murray’s affair. But, what about the boat Condo? Oh, you mean the one Lizzie somehow knew how to start up and start driving? It was hers already. Maybe her Dad left it for her. She uses her id to them destroy the boat that’s a negative aspect in her dirty, double adulterating life. That is not Charlie’s car she’s driving at the end of the film. That’s the car she bought with the money she scored for the insurance money after it sank. There you have it. Team Fred. Team Lizzie, Team Janie. The Mother? Oh yeah super abusive. We first meet her and she’s in a pink blouse with matching pink nail polish. That’s some Type A behavior, but not a red flag. Then BOOM, open the door to Lizzie’s room and everything is Pink. Why? Cause the Mother was so controlling she didn’t even let her daughter decorate her own room, have her own ideas, or any control. Could Fred and Janie be manifestations of her idea parents? Your GD Right. Id. Ego. Super-MF-Ego. I’m Out.

::sympathetic internet hug:: I also see myself in this movie, so do some folks on Twitter it appears. Club ADHD, anxiety, depression, and autism spectrum disorder reporting in. My mother was excited to have a daughter and for a while tried to dress me in cute clothes, fix my hair, the pink room with dollies; there were times where my behaviour and other family dynamics obviously frustrated her. Thankfully after a time when she realized I was not that girl at all, she supported me and let me be my own kid. My parents have never had a great relationship, but they're both so off I don't know who else would have either of them if they divorced (and neither are capable of independence). We have always been a very isolated family. My folks wanted me to have friends but never rolled out the welcome wagon to have anyone over. When I wasn't in a bubble of self-involvement I could definitely pick up on their tension and would retreat back into myself. School was great since the teachers loved me, but I never had any long-term friends. Friends either moved away, or I would say or do something wrong and they'd shut me out; one parent flat out told me I was a bad influence on his kids. That's messed up to hear at nine! Never once growing up did I feel normal or confident, and I couldn’t figure out why my life wasn’t what I thought it was supposed to be. I also have a strong logical side but am prone to magical whatifisms that the logical side has to drown out. I know I had at least one imaginary friend but I can't recall for the life of me what they were like. I was the kid playing with myself, talking to myself, tuning out the world. I spent all of my teenage years and twenties studying others and trying to be a different, regular person, to be what other people wanted me to be, and surrounding myself with the wrong people. Only recently have I really been able to be myself and be happy with who I am at my core. Yeah, I can see that. Honestly, I can see a past where the mother wasn't allowed to be her own person by convention, was pushed into a life she didn't want or wasn't prepared for. She's only working with the tools she has, and they aren't great. I appreciate the moment that the movie lets her be complex and not a cartoony villain.

I'm gonna need clarification by Jason on his Clue comments. I've always loved Jason but... he thinks Clue is a bad movie? What? He can't possibly, right? He must be thinking of one of the other ones. Jason, you think the 1985 Tim Curry, Madeline Kahn, Christopher Lloyd, Michael McKean, Martin Mull, and Lesley Ann Warren Clue is BAD?!?! It is a truly wonderful movie. Jason liking this movie, I can live with. but I can't believe he does not like Clue. I hope he's thinking of a different Clue. or hasn't seen it in a long time, maybe needs a rewatch. This hurts.

Yrs!!! I even yelled " Get the fuck out of here with that gaslighting bullshit Charlie! "during the first scene of the movie! He was an utter shit. He very clearly had been gaslighting her for the entirety of their relationship, belittles her, and looks down on her. Honestly I think that the best ending for Elizabeth would have been if she learned that it's ok to be alone and had no boyfriend at the end. If she and Mickey had just been friends. She's very clearly frightened of the idea of being alone and that's why she's stuck with Charles even though she knows he's a piece of shit. That's also part of why she lets her mother take control of her life . The fear of being alone in life and on her own. Being truly independent.

My biggest beef with this episode is the "it's only a movie" defense June and Jason kept going to. They essentially killed the premise of their entire podcast. They also kind of exposed their "characters" with this episode, at least IMO. For example, June clearly remembers movies, and plays up her "disgust" of certain things for entertainment value because if she's not "deeply disturbed" by some of the things in this movie, there's no way she actually was with some things in previous episodes. Jason, I think, simply didn't hate the movie, saw the rift between Paul and June and RAN with it. I don't think he honestly believed half the arguments he was making, as opposed to "I said I'm team June and I am committing to it" You hear it in his voice when second opinions are about to start and he realizes he can't rip on any of them because that was just him for and hour and half on stage, so he actually has to say it out loud like "hey guys, I realize I sound like a nut job out here" as a way to almost retcon his entire stance over the podcast. For anyone who thinks I'm making up stuff that simply wasn't there, or looking for deeper meaning into a podcast that was never intended, congrats! You now know how team Sanity felt listening to Team Fred argue in defense of this movie.

Yes, there were times during the podcast when I felt like we were being gaslit by June and Jason. Two co-hosts of a bad movie podcast were acting like they were unfamiliar with the prospect of a movie undermining its own intentions or being internally inconsistent. I don't doubt that we were supposed to believe that Fred was an extension of Lizzie's psyche, but as Triple Lindy notes above, the movie is constantly undermining that by portraying Fred as a wacky mischief maker with his own rascally agenda coming from some alternate universe of imaginary friends. (I would guess it was also on their minds to leave enough existential independence for Fred to do a Drop Dead Fred 2.)

I thought for like five seconds that I wanted to comment on this, and then I was all

Rik Mayall called it after they made it, when he said it was "too sentimental for over here [the UK] and too over-the-top for over there [the US]."

It's the time for the (not so) exciting return of... How Did This Get Named? The last few movies have all either not had a name change or a changed one that isn't interesting enough to be mentioned (Deadfall is The Professional). However this movie I guess made its choice whether to be Team Fred or Team Sanity when it came out. At one point there was debate among the two teams who the focus of the movie was. Was it a story about Phoebe Cates or was it about Fred. Well, in Japan the movies is called. フィービー・ケイツの 私の彼は問題児 or Fiibii Keitsu no Watashi no Kare wa Dodonpa or Phoebe Cates's "My Boyfriend is a Problem Child" Now this title there are a few things to unpack. One, her boyfriend/husband is cheating on her which is a problem but not a child. Also Fred is not her boyfriend nor is he a child. However he behaves like a child and made her a problem child so I guess that part kinda checks out. Second, Phoebe Cates's name is part of the title like it was a movie she made or something. Now this could be seen as a way of getting people in. Gremlins was big here so why not sell your movie using her name. However if think about it, this title puts Phoebe Cates's character front and center as the Team Fred people did talk about. So I guess Japan in Team Fred. I found this image and I remembered when they'd package DVDs like this. I thought it was kinda interesting. The bottom part was a separate paper that went in between the plastic shrink wrap and the DVD itself. It has the original poster, the name of the movie, the director and what they're known for and the cast and what they're known for. Then on the right is a little chart to tell you what kind of movie it is. So it's a five star scale and the categories they went with were "Fantasy", "Independence", "Misfortune", "Confession" and "Friendship." Fantasy, independence and friendship and get four our of five stars while misfortune and confession get three.

Whew, this episode was a roller coaster. I have so many thoughts, but I'll try to contain most of them because I do get why people dislike it. It is loud and over the top and there’s stuff that definitely could have been executed better. I would also hard agree that this is 100% not a kid’s movie. Much like Ace Venture was definitely not a kid's movie, but was shown to me and my peers repeatedly as a child. Elizabeth’s mother was abusive. Period. Abuse may not have been her intention, but it’s what she was serving up. There’s the whole makeover scene where she styles her daughter exactly in her image. That’s friggin' nutso. Her daughter isn't allowed to be her own person! Repeating someone’s name is like gaslighting douchebag abuse 101. Why marry Elizabeth at all? Because he was an abusive garbage monster who saw a dowdy, childlike dummy he could keep under his thumb that would keep house and play wife when he wanted, and would never leave him for chasing skirts all over town. He called her mother behind her back! He knew who the original abuser was and went right to the source to get Elizabeth back in line! The only problem I have is that Carrie Fisher's character makes no logical sense any way I wrap my head around her. While I completely understand being as delicate as possible around a friend that's suffered long-term emotional abuse, at some point (I'd assume when she renders you homeless and then comes into your serious place of employment) you have to be firm and put your foot down. The dopey love interest and his dismissal of Elizabeth's mental state does make sense to me though. From way afar she's kind of a Manic Pixie Dream Girl, and he seems to be the kind of dope that would buy into that nonsense. Nobody seems to see Elizabeth as a person because she doesn’t know who she is. She was never allowed to form her own personhood. Fred, real/magical or self-actualization aside, does finally get her to start living her own life.

Yep, yep, yep 100%. It is okay to be alone, it is okay to be single. Media does a terrible job of showcasing this. I don't think I've ever been this passionate about a movie before.

I feel sort of convinced by both sides of the debate, and found this episode a blast to listen to. On the other hand, somehow, the two sides of the debate as presented have made me like the movie even less than I already did.

I wanted to offer up a defense of the scene with all the imaginary friends. I think it could be explained away with Carl Jung's collective unconscious; that all the kids are sharing their friends like that, but they themselves can't see it because they are conscious. As for the end, when Fred goes to the other girl, I don't think there is an explanation. It's a flaw in the movie, that I think both sides agree it has flaws. The makers or studio wanted a dumb Hollywood sentimental ending and that's what they came up with. Anyways, I think this is a kid's movie (maybe 10-13, where they're old enough to remember being like, 5 but old enough to wonder what the heck it means to grow up.) I think it's important for kids to have a story with some horrific elements in it so they can see that they can be overcome. I'd be curious to see what kind of divisions sprang up if they covered Return to Oz.

Did anyone else notice that this is the sole writing credit ever attributed to Elizabeth Livingston? Apparently here is (some) of the story behind that.

Love the late Rik Mayall and Phoebe Cates but yeah, no interest in seeing this again. And this episode was really unpleasant to listen to, honestly.

I would respectfully suggest that this is a bit of a stretch

This is the first time I've listened to an episode and felt the immediate need to watch the movie. Having done so, I am firmly Team Sanity. I can understand June's position, since we all have things that connected with us in childhood and formed an unbreakable bond. As for Jason, I don't know what to say about someone who connected with this movie for the first time at age 46. The most charitable explanation I can think of is that he's cynically trying to drum up interest in a remake in hopes of being cast as Fred. On the question, "who is this movie for?": I was 8 when Drop Dead Fred came out. I didn't see it, but I do remember the marketing campaign, and feeling like it was supposed to be for me -- a zany comedy for kids. In hindsight, that's insane. This was also where I found Jason and June least convincing on the podcast -- they seemed to want to pull out the parts of the movie they found poignant and hand wave away the parts that made no sense as "well, it's a mainstream comedy" or "oh, there's magical realism," as if the filmmakers bear no responsibility for creating a tonally incoherent, disturbing mess of a movie.

This is not a little kids movie (under 10) but for 11-14 it hits its marks. I am not surprised so many people found it upsetting, but I was surprised how people couldn't buy into the imaginary friend bit. I saw it as similar to Inside Out, where a different persona exists within the main character. I think team Fred vs Team Mum question is confusing, are they asking who you think has Elizabeth's best interests? Because neither, one ties her down (thought that wasn't just metaphoric but now I guess it was) as a child and blames her for the break up of her marriage, the other gets her arrested, sinks a boathouse and asks her to kiss him on the mouth. A lot depends more on who you think Fred is, like if he isn't an imaginary friend, like many seem to say, what is he? A creepy angel/ghost who haunts little girls, gets blown away by sneezes but someone can control certain people but not others and can only be seen by one person but also has no back story of how he came to be????! I am not team Fred or team Mom, I am team June n Jason. I believe she has serious problems, an adult still not taking control of her life, she says she doesn't want to be alone, she creates a friend to deal with it, also to not take responsibility for her own acting out. She also is controlled by her mother and her husband and finally takes control of her shit and moves on from both and takes responsibility for her actions by saying bye to Fred. The little girl at the end was the most puzzling thing, well that and the idea of a "romantic dinner salad".

That’s fascinating! I just shared with Erin. Thank you very much!

Same. Bring back 80/90's action movies. Surprise us with a gem like Miami Connection. Anything but this.

So this was release straight to Netflix here in Japan and was dying to watch it after hearing how poorly it did and how crazy it was. My co-worker also watched it and had many thoughts so I'll have to ask them for some C&Os as well. Also apologies to @DannytheWall I didn't realize until hearing the episode that I wrote basically the same thing as you. I had a busy week, and must have read it and forgot about it but it was rattling around in my mind.